Taxes and Economy need explanation

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Kristijonas
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Kristijonas »

If performance is a concern, how about making it an option?
Either a settings option, a scenario option or as before - make the calculations correct when not using Fastest game speed?
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Balthagor
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Balthagor »

Every time a feature is provided as an option, it means we're now essentially providing two features. It doubles the testing. And the next "option" doubles it again...

We already have a lot of options.
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Rosalis
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Rosalis »

Yup alot of features:

electric sales:
i guess community is split on this, but without it, more then half the ai become useless. If the ai agressively builded power plants, but then again it would make option useless and the countries with huge excess will be targeted. That huge excess was put in to represent countries like Netherlands, Belgium and US providing gas power to other countries. Atleast thats how i understood it in SR2020. I doubt alot of players unselect this, cause as player your basicly screwed if you take over India in 2020 with a descent gdp/c. If sales off was realistic, in only neighbouring countries can supply you untill there are no transit treaties or connected land, that would be semi realistic, now the option is just annoying. I doubt more then 5% will be in favor of keeping it if you put up a pole. A nice scenario for the workshop, but thats it.

lovalty penalties:
i mean you guys prolly have the data. I rather dont screw over the ai if its honoring the game in declaring wars.

diplomatic merchant marine:
rly how many people that understand the game and options select this? I rather dont have my expensive troops trapped against Canadian borders or sometimes even worse, get killed by ilegally? passing neutral naval borders. If you give the option, it has to work. If it cant work because of transit treaties, then they have to stay there instead of flying against an border untill its out of fuel and descide to just make an end of it.

weather system:
i mean what annoys me if i turn it off, the filter goes on everytime i zoom out, guess its my own fault by pressing w instead of 2 for battlegroups. I want a clear picture, not being distracted by some clouds. With the option on, i really dont notice any difference, so yeah. Besides that you need to select every hex to see what weather it is. It should be an important feature, now its just annoying.

battle of the atlantic:
nice scenario if you want to screw over UK i guess, i dont even know it has any impact. This is not an option, but a scenario that almost none will play.

use rail transport:
often they still slow down for no visible reason whatsoever. Special forces seem to be under less influence of this slow down. i dont know why you would turn it off, the damage taken in rail mode is very light, atleast in 2020.

colonies keep military facilities:
either its yes or no. i dont really mind it, but obviously i like those facilities, i can provide them with troops if i want to. When they capture loyal territory they still keep the facilities with the option turned off. I dont mind, but yeah maybe this option should be ingame you know. Ruler descide wether they keep the facility or not.

road/rail removal:
again this seems more that YOU want to keep that option in, No player will complain if this was integrated.

These options are quite a serious problem for new players. If it really impacted gameplay or respresented things more realistic, that would be something, but it doesnt, atleast not positive in anyway. Loyalty is the one you could defend, but really ask the seniors of ex occupied countries if they produced more for export after they got free, i already know the answer. Its really not pretty what some countries did, but it worked for production.
evildari
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by evildari »

if thats the way to get real calculations, then cut the following options (similar what Rosalis wrote):

weather: since its just a switch for graphic - well move it to graphic options - also it is annoying that everytime after getting into game i have to disable it to get a better view
electric sales - without major rebalance of games electric economy and/or adding a power line system to trade with neighbors, AI would get dead pretty fast if one disables the foreign sale of electricity.
diplomatic merchant marine: after seeing sold units not moving for years/decades to their destination - just cut it!
battle of the atlantic: unless there were a real merchant marine which would transport all those traded goods - useless
use rail transport: cut option - always on
road/rail removal: cut option - always on
after all, i rather have my 90B$/day than some i.e. imaginary battle of the atlantic - where i have to disable the message spam caused by it.
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http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
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Balthagor
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Balthagor »

evildari wrote: Sep 02 2020 if thats the way to get real calculations, then cut the following options...
- Weather, when on, has an impact on combat. It's not just visual. Mud or snow will impact land and air combat results
- Electricity sales I don't have a big opinion either way. I do recall some of maps where designed with sales off.
- The #1 complaint from SR2010 days was unit movement overseas. Dumping this option puts us back under that gun. Not eager to revisit that.

We'll consider this suggestions for SR next gen, assuming these features apply based on the era(s) modelled. Lots still to be decided for that project.
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Rosalis
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Rosalis »

Further notes on loyalty:

I dont know why you would become blind in non loyal terrytory? Maybe someone can explain.

Its not so much the production that made empires crumble (rly 40% forever!!), but the pure size and surrounding regions with allies taking mathers in their own hand. Not stop producing land troops, because your at peace meanwhile your neighbour is being annexed by a huge threat. If 1 is holding against a major threat, it shouldn't be the major threat declaring 10 more wars, but the smaller regions prepare and if ready declare war.

To test these things the mod from evildari is far easier to see how the ai will behave. More balanced, smaller regions wont die in seconds.

Some sort of system where the user can read the penalties and bonuses are still lacking, and i think that brings us back to real calculations and where this topic was about. Cutting down on options for more feedback to the user and improve gameplay aint a bad deal in my opinion, but rly should they be removed if not improved? Better game equals more people buying it.

Obsolete units is another example of obsolete options. Usefull units like transport, missile launchers or researched units just being marked as obsolete just because the top dogs are 30 years ahead. To make this a standard option seems a weird move. If the user want to "hide" units, the option is already there. Some things take effort. You cant please everyone, you gotta know your priorities. Integrate were possible, but dont hide a big part of the game for players that just wanna play.

You dont have to remove merchant marines, altho that would be fine with me, to remove the option. Instead they just get transfered to you. Further note on merchant marine, you can find a very big percentage of land units in sea transports (if available) sitting idle after some years. So yeah maybe its time to make some descisions..
Pashahlis
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Pashahlis »

Its been 2 years now and nobody seems to have really answered the guys' questions. Some attempts were made, but they dont answer everything. As a new player whos struggling really hard with the economy, I am bumping this thread up again and hope somebody could again adress these questions!

1. How does each tax work?
2. How and why does inflation increase, how do you decrease it and what is the optimal rate and why isnt it 0%?
3. What does GDP/C do and how is it increased?
Rosalis
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Rosalis »

I mean those questions are answered all over the place on this forum, especially the SR2020 section got alot of answers. The outcome you can ask alot of questions, but apparently even devs cant answer them. Things gone off the rails in the series.

Simply said there are 2 groups rich and poor which will effect your demand. Then you have to deal with other regions which will spend as much money it can (and more) into social policies and research. So really if you want to grow gdp/c you have to do that and more. GDP/C has a ranking system from 1 to however many regions there are. From there demand is calculated. (world) population have much less influence on demand then this ranking system.

1. not in the mood to write a book about taxes, which final outcome in the game isnt greatly represented. You can google tax policies of the region you play and you can get a good idea where to start for the most part. From there you can use it to control inflation and domestic demand with the sales tax.
2. 3-5% is ideal, but some regions you cant really go below 10% inflation. These regions are extremely easy to get a stable treasury. To lower inflation you can reduce expense and or raise taxes and market prices. The main problem with high inflation is that your production cost of goods will increase. But it will do that anyway..Main thing is you should look for shortages in the world and make 20% profit on exports. This is basicly hardcoded.
3. GDP/C = average income of your population, rich and poor. There is no middle class. Generally with high gdp/c regions you dont want alot of facilities or exports. You can balance your economy with social expences and produce what you need. From GDP/C the tax income are suppose to be calculated.

Once upon a time domestic market was the most important thing in the game, but more and more people seem to not mention it so yeah, you also didnt ask questions about that. Demand is bad and production is all that mather for the general public it seems. For me thats the real problem we have in economy right now. There is no point in peace time to grow your economy. Demand is easily fixed, as player atleast. China is basicly locked in being poor as much as US is locked in being rich. So treasury is all that mathers and units, but since units have expenses they seem to improve gdp/c more then bring a dent in your treasury. Apparently never heard of regions improving their economy by lowering their military expenses. Turkey is a good example in that in rl.

In game if you want a kickstart, as high gdp/c region you generally want to target weak regions with few facilities and some population, this will lower inflation and increase your demand=sales=money. As low gdp/c region you are better of to target rich countries, so you get their facilities and part of their market share. You could colonise the lower gdp/c regions for free resources. Generally you dont want more poor people if you are already poor, but it doesnt rly mather much if you do. The thing you should be worried about is getting above 1.1 billion pop. Usually things go south very fast then.

Complaints about speed or performance are fair, but got nothing to do with features or anything. Its simply there is no limit to number of units. The planes will overfill the airfields and then your performance will tank big time. In peace time often all the ai will research in military techs is ww1 and ww2 plane techs and then produce those, if it got any air production sites, which is rare. AI rather build 70 research centers. It will add up fast tho. UK can only hold that much planes before an endless loop starts of planes going from airfield to airfield to try and refuel.
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