Unit control and Cohesiveness
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Unit control and Cohesiveness
Alright, I was just checking up on the progress of this game, and I am seeing that there is come controversy regarding unit cohesiveness. So I decided to put this out there, even though I know it is a bit of a departure from what was in place in SR 2010.
Back when I had my commodore 64 (I know, eons ago ) there were a series of games involving WWII that involved division to corps level command, however the individual units were battalions. What you did was give orders to your regiments like "attack," "defend," "support defense," "move to," ect, along with certain geographic objectives. The AI would then do so while doing its best to maintain the regiment as a cohesive unit (meaning that certain slower units included in the regiment would slow it down).
However, you weren't able to give orders to your individual battalions, only to the regiments. Very realistic, because as a head of state, you aren't (or rather, you shouldn't) be concerned with the movements of battalions (or even divisions for that matter), unless you are micromanaging in the worst tradition of leaders.
I would also back this up with my playing experiences once I got to the later stages of SR 2010... I would simply mass a large quantity of armor and mechanized infantry and send it along the nearest road en masse towards the city I wanted to take. And I would succeed most of the time too. Far easier and more realistic to simply issue commands to combined arms Brigade Combat Groups that I have assembled.
Also, one other thing. The diplomacy hit for using nuclear weapons needs to go way down. When a nuclear power initiates first use, realistically they aren't going to have a bunch of other nuclear powers of equivelent size getting in line to declare war on them unless they don't have much of a nuclear arsenal anymore. Most nations wouldn't want to fight a nation that has already used nuclear weapons unless that nation is much weaker, or if that nation has used a significant portion of its deterrent. AI behavior at that point should be "stand back and see how weak the two belligerents become... then jump on them when they show weakness." Nuclear war isn't something most head of states are going to rush into.
Back when I had my commodore 64 (I know, eons ago ) there were a series of games involving WWII that involved division to corps level command, however the individual units were battalions. What you did was give orders to your regiments like "attack," "defend," "support defense," "move to," ect, along with certain geographic objectives. The AI would then do so while doing its best to maintain the regiment as a cohesive unit (meaning that certain slower units included in the regiment would slow it down).
However, you weren't able to give orders to your individual battalions, only to the regiments. Very realistic, because as a head of state, you aren't (or rather, you shouldn't) be concerned with the movements of battalions (or even divisions for that matter), unless you are micromanaging in the worst tradition of leaders.
I would also back this up with my playing experiences once I got to the later stages of SR 2010... I would simply mass a large quantity of armor and mechanized infantry and send it along the nearest road en masse towards the city I wanted to take. And I would succeed most of the time too. Far easier and more realistic to simply issue commands to combined arms Brigade Combat Groups that I have assembled.
Also, one other thing. The diplomacy hit for using nuclear weapons needs to go way down. When a nuclear power initiates first use, realistically they aren't going to have a bunch of other nuclear powers of equivelent size getting in line to declare war on them unless they don't have much of a nuclear arsenal anymore. Most nations wouldn't want to fight a nation that has already used nuclear weapons unless that nation is much weaker, or if that nation has used a significant portion of its deterrent. AI behavior at that point should be "stand back and see how weak the two belligerents become... then jump on them when they show weakness." Nuclear war isn't something most head of states are going to rush into.
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Re: Unit control and Cohesiveness
lwarmonger wrote: What you did was give orders to your regiments like "attack," "defend," "support defense," "move to," ect, along with certain geographic objectives. The AI would then do so while doing its best to maintain the regiment as a cohesive unit (meaning that certain slower units included in the regiment would slow it down).
Far easier and more realistic to simply issue commands to combined arms Brigade Combat Groups that I have assembled.
This is something we have been clamoring for on the forums for ages (search for "Unit heirarchy"), but unfortunately none of us has come up with a satisfactory way to implement it in-game (in terms of user interface and actual functioning).
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/em tkobo gets his popcorn and sets up his folding chair.
"Hey guys !"
"Legend said they have a control or "Hierarchy system" in the works !"
/em tkobo settles back in chair comfortably and begins his wait in anticipation
"Hey guys !"
"Legend said they have a control or "Hierarchy system" in the works !"
/em tkobo settles back in chair comfortably and begins his wait in anticipation
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Well we can't do that. The reason... because even when something is in the game, it may not make it for the final release. This caused problems in the past with our larger than life manual and lack of people reading our "readme".ainsworth74 wrote:/ains sets up his folding chair and steals some popcorn
"You know sometimes I wish that these guys would give us a stright answer just once! And not hide everything!"
/munches popcorn
Additionally it's a matter of where do we "draw the line". I could put every idea we have here on the forum but then what good will that do?
As it is, I am currently eluding to something we are designing to let people know we are addressing unit control in SR2020. I'd say in the next week or two we'll have it further nailed down. Since it's not done maybe we should say nothing... hmm?
Perhaps we'll wait for the beta to unveil this particular game element.
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That's too bad. I don't think the game will realize its full potential without it, or something like it.Legend wrote:ahem... hierarchy - no. I said no such thing. maybe I should have "quoted" but I was referring to the original post... which discusses map control of units in a way that will reduce the need for micro-management. so a "control system" - yes, hierarchy - no.
Regards,
Feltan
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"IT"? as in hierarchy? What do you want to achieve? If it's better control of your units... hierarchy is not the only answer. At least not in the official sense of having to put things a certain way together in a group. If we gave a true hierarchy then I think it would mean less control within the hierarchy group. Do you want that? I'd think not. So back to my question, "what do you want to achieve?" Let's bring that up again for this discussion so I can see if the system I am working on will achieve the same results. What I am trying to achieve is a system that not only appeals to players on the forum but one that will make it easier for new players to manage large amounts of units.Feltan wrote:That's too bad. I don't think the game will realize its full potential without it, or something like it.Legend wrote:ahem... hierarchy - no. I said no such thing. maybe I should have "quoted" but I was referring to the original post... which discusses map control of units in a way that will reduce the need for micro-management. so a "control system" - yes, hierarchy - no.
Regards,
Feltan
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I would be happy if I could order a line of unit stacks to advance in a line without having to order every stack individually. If I could order a "formation" of stacks to advance to a certain point, say a hex two hexes beyond a city, and form up into the same basic "formation" at that target, then even better. Example: a line of mech infantry stacks spaced one hex apart, with a line of SP arty stacks one or two hexes behind, and a line of long range AA stacks spaced out between and behind the arty. As it stands now, moving this force of say...20 stacks, takes time and patience and twenty separate move orders (not to mention a good memory since I play without the unit path display), or I can drag a box around the whole force and order them all to one single hex. If I could drag a box around them all and order one stack to move to a location, and have the rest move to remain in the same proximity as when the "box" was dragged, that would be fine.
Disparity because of obstacles or resistance would scramble the "formation" in many cases, but small adjustments would have to be made to form the line to the new situation anyway. Since you can order a non amphibious stack to a river hex and they will get as close as possible within their capabilities, I don't see why it would not work for this "formation". Maybe not perfect, or realistic hierarchy, but you could move larger groups of units without them all mongolian cluster fudging on one hex.
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Disparity because of obstacles or resistance would scramble the "formation" in many cases, but small adjustments would have to be made to form the line to the new situation anyway. Since you can order a non amphibious stack to a river hex and they will get as close as possible within their capabilities, I don't see why it would not work for this "formation". Maybe not perfect, or realistic hierarchy, but you could move larger groups of units without them all mongolian cluster fudging on one hex.
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Legend,Legend wrote:"IT"? as in hierarchy? What do you want to achieve? If it's better control of your units... hierarchy is not the only answer. At least not in the official sense of having to put things a certain way together in a group. If we gave a true hierarchy then I think it would mean less control within the hierarchy group. Do you want that? I'd think not. So back to my question, "what do you want to achieve?" Let's bring that up again for this discussion so I can see if the system I am working on will achieve the same results. What I am trying to achieve is a system that not only appeals to players on the forum but one that will make it easier for new players to manage large amounts of units.Feltan wrote:That's too bad. I don't think the game will realize its full potential without it, or something like it.Legend wrote:ahem... hierarchy - no. I said no such thing. maybe I should have "quoted" but I was referring to the original post... which discusses map control of units in a way that will reduce the need for micro-management. so a "control system" - yes, hierarchy - no.
Regards,
Feltan
Sorry for the tardy response. I am in the center of the ice storm you may have heard about, and the internet has been up and down all day.
Heirarchy is an abused term. Some one coined it, but never really defined it. It has become a catch-all term. Let me enumerate a few features I hope you are addressing.
1. The ability for the player and the AI to group land battalions, sea units, and air units. Other than Libya and Indonesia, no modern army conducts operations as an oort cloud of independent battalions in a swarm (and for those two countries, this is not a good thing). Furthermore, playability is severely compromised when you have so many individual units to track. Similarly, like ground brigade sized units, naval task forces and air groups are the unit of measure in modern operations. While we all agree that 100% realism is not a goal for the game -- this shortfall is such a glaring gap that SR2020 playability and realism were negatively impacted.
2. Headquarters/Logistics. The game needs some representation of what makes military operations difficult -- planning and supplies. A headquarters unit (or something like it) that acts as a supply container, and can be grouped with combat units is needed. Some of us used trucks in SR2010 to try and show this, but the results were far from satisfactory. Again, I can clearly see the oort cloud of South American battalions swarming against any incursion by U.S. land forces -- no seeming organization or logistics considerations constrained this action by the AI. For that matter, no such constraints bounded the human player's actions either. Logistics seperates the men from the boys in real life -- and SR2020 needs a more serious attempt at modelling this concept.
Regards,
Feltan
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