Regional Diplomacy
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Regional Diplomacy
First, I understand the need for watching my build cap, I have been playing for some time, and fully understand the enormous restitution that I must make to those countries that I have attacked or seriously defeated after they attacked me.
Now a quick synopsis: While playing South Africa and meticulously managing my country, war was declared against me by the Namibian Federation. Its reasons for declaring war are never explained (which is one thing that seriously needs to be changed) but none the less I quickly mobilized and began to push his forces back and eventually they surrendered. The war was far longer than I would have expected as his forces continue to operate even though I have control of practically all of his resources. I thought that air-dropping SOF at the border and closing off his coasts would minimize any support received - but it didn't (another change needed). During this war every other country declared war against me and after I had defeated the Namibian Fed, had repelled the initial attacks by Tanzania and the Angolan Rep I set out to make amends with everyone.
First I ensured that my Build Cap was the average of the three top countries, I pulled my troops back and lessened the number of troops along the two borders and placed the majority of my troops (ground, air, and naval) into the reserves.
With all of this complete, I still had skirmishes with Tanzania and the Angola Rep however they ended up losing each battle due to my positioning and use of air power. During the skirmishing I chose to began my diplomacy with the countries farthest from me - my thinking being that I cannot seriously influence them so they would surely deal with me at a much higher rate. These countries being: Niger, Morocco, Libya, Cameroon, and Sudan. The amount of investment to move their DipRat was unbelievable; the CivRat was nowhere in sight to be moved; and each of their CB against me never changed from 100% war.
After a lengthy and in my eyes, a pointless effort I stopped providing them with an endless supply of resources and money. I then moved my attention to those closest to me: Tanzania, Angolan Rep, Congo, and the Kenyan Federation. After many long months of enormous giving on my part I was only able to move their DipRat back to Concerned or Indifferent. Again the CivRat never budged.
Things I believe need looked into:
1. WHEN the player stopped advancing and conducting offensive operations that should send an indicator to those at war with him to conduct diplomacy.
2. WHEN the player begans giving restitution to multiple countries for months on end and never asking for anything in return - this should be an indicator that other regional countries DipRat should slowly begin to turn upwards as well.
3. The player should not have to expend all of his resources for the next 100 years to the regional countries to get them to consider a cease fire. The criteria for a Cease Fire should never be the same as Peace, just as Peace and Alliance shouldn't have the same requirements. IMO, if the player stops offensive operations and pulls his forces back from the border then a cease fire should be a possibility.
4. During my offensive operations it was obvious that the Namibian Fed had no money (it was in debt and had a deficit upwards of $10billion), no food, limited fuel, and other resources should have been dwindling quickly. This should have an affect on his military and cause him to discuss a cease fire or peace - not fight to the last man every time.
In closing, I really enjoy your game and am looking forward to owning SR2020 - I just hope that I will not be purchasing the same game all over.
Thanks
Tony
Now a quick synopsis: While playing South Africa and meticulously managing my country, war was declared against me by the Namibian Federation. Its reasons for declaring war are never explained (which is one thing that seriously needs to be changed) but none the less I quickly mobilized and began to push his forces back and eventually they surrendered. The war was far longer than I would have expected as his forces continue to operate even though I have control of practically all of his resources. I thought that air-dropping SOF at the border and closing off his coasts would minimize any support received - but it didn't (another change needed). During this war every other country declared war against me and after I had defeated the Namibian Fed, had repelled the initial attacks by Tanzania and the Angolan Rep I set out to make amends with everyone.
First I ensured that my Build Cap was the average of the three top countries, I pulled my troops back and lessened the number of troops along the two borders and placed the majority of my troops (ground, air, and naval) into the reserves.
With all of this complete, I still had skirmishes with Tanzania and the Angola Rep however they ended up losing each battle due to my positioning and use of air power. During the skirmishing I chose to began my diplomacy with the countries farthest from me - my thinking being that I cannot seriously influence them so they would surely deal with me at a much higher rate. These countries being: Niger, Morocco, Libya, Cameroon, and Sudan. The amount of investment to move their DipRat was unbelievable; the CivRat was nowhere in sight to be moved; and each of their CB against me never changed from 100% war.
After a lengthy and in my eyes, a pointless effort I stopped providing them with an endless supply of resources and money. I then moved my attention to those closest to me: Tanzania, Angolan Rep, Congo, and the Kenyan Federation. After many long months of enormous giving on my part I was only able to move their DipRat back to Concerned or Indifferent. Again the CivRat never budged.
Things I believe need looked into:
1. WHEN the player stopped advancing and conducting offensive operations that should send an indicator to those at war with him to conduct diplomacy.
2. WHEN the player begans giving restitution to multiple countries for months on end and never asking for anything in return - this should be an indicator that other regional countries DipRat should slowly begin to turn upwards as well.
3. The player should not have to expend all of his resources for the next 100 years to the regional countries to get them to consider a cease fire. The criteria for a Cease Fire should never be the same as Peace, just as Peace and Alliance shouldn't have the same requirements. IMO, if the player stops offensive operations and pulls his forces back from the border then a cease fire should be a possibility.
4. During my offensive operations it was obvious that the Namibian Fed had no money (it was in debt and had a deficit upwards of $10billion), no food, limited fuel, and other resources should have been dwindling quickly. This should have an affect on his military and cause him to discuss a cease fire or peace - not fight to the last man every time.
In closing, I really enjoy your game and am looking forward to owning SR2020 - I just hope that I will not be purchasing the same game all over.
Thanks
Tony
- Lightbringer
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I agree with you that the AI diplomatic model needs to be more flexible and perhaps be taught the fine art of "self preservation". I have offered peace to regions which I had gutted of territory, military forces, and resource hexes. I added healthy bribes/restitution. Still they would not relent in their suicidal struggle. I have mentioned elsewhere that the Goats need to teach the AI that if it's region does not continue, then none of the other priorities it is trying to fulfill will be achieved. In other words, the AI needs to learn that survival is priority #1.
I will say this though, just as the United States in the WWIII scenario, South Africa is universally and intensely hated by design in the African Scenario. They coded it that way. There is not really much you can do to make them like you. My suggestion would be to forget "average of the top three" and shoot for dead last lowest buildcap. Even then I think you will have to spend diplo-dollars to keep Belli from climbing.
This discussion would be better over in the 2020 thread, perhaps Chris will move it. Tony, I do know that the Diplo model is being seriously revamped for 2020. Check some of the threads dealing with it in the 2020 section.
I will say this though, just as the United States in the WWIII scenario, South Africa is universally and intensely hated by design in the African Scenario. They coded it that way. There is not really much you can do to make them like you. My suggestion would be to forget "average of the top three" and shoot for dead last lowest buildcap. Even then I think you will have to spend diplo-dollars to keep Belli from climbing.
This discussion would be better over in the 2020 thread, perhaps Chris will move it. Tony, I do know that the Diplo model is being seriously revamped for 2020. Check some of the threads dealing with it in the 2020 section.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Posting here instead of 2020
As I haven't seen anything on SR2020 I thought it in-appropriate to post this on that forum.
I had come to the realization that SA is the most hated country in that region; however, I remain puzzled at the fact that self-preservation, as you mentioned, isn't a priority for the AI. At one point I was so frustrated that I tried to give the Congo literally all of my money and resources available and all of the land and water previously owned by other countries back to my original boundary and they turned it down. I know that was absurb but I was trying anything to get a simple change in the relationship.
In closing, I am REALLY, REALLY hoping that SR2020 will have addressed these and other issues. Most people who play these games will at some point go on the war-path to conquer other countries. But eventually everyone will want to test the diplomacy and that is a real failure in SR2010 on actions between the player and the AI.
Thanks for your reply and I will start researching the 2020 forums.
Tony
I had come to the realization that SA is the most hated country in that region; however, I remain puzzled at the fact that self-preservation, as you mentioned, isn't a priority for the AI. At one point I was so frustrated that I tried to give the Congo literally all of my money and resources available and all of the land and water previously owned by other countries back to my original boundary and they turned it down. I know that was absurb but I was trying anything to get a simple change in the relationship.
In closing, I am REALLY, REALLY hoping that SR2020 will have addressed these and other issues. Most people who play these games will at some point go on the war-path to conquer other countries. But eventually everyone will want to test the diplomacy and that is a real failure in SR2010 on actions between the player and the AI.
Thanks for your reply and I will start researching the 2020 forums.
Tony
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There are plans to improve diplomacy in many of the ways you mentioned.
Some of the things you mentioned got me to thinking... currently, as a way to perhaps add some balance to areas of the world where the countries are as they are, currently unbalanced was to make stronger regions have less cause to attack others and in return be more likely to be attacked. When I say this I mean, countries are more likely to attack larger, stronger regions with less consequences due to the relations that are preset in the game.
Although we haven't settled on the exact final outcome of improvements in this area, I would hope that it won't turn out exactly the same and that we will be able to provide some options to easily modify these settings.
A different thing I'd also hope for is a bit more preparation on the part of the AI. I have created design docs with possible AI actions and tendencies that I hope will find their way into the game. For instance, if and AI can go to war, with little consequence it may just declare war, or it may prepare, in several different ways. The AI may decide to only defend or to attack after another region has declared war to take advantage of a situation. There are many plans to make AI actions more closely model what may happen in real life & what may happen if it was a human opponent running the AI country.
I would like to explore ideas in more detail with anyone... so feel free to comment. What may greatly help is mini scenarios. For example...
Region A has 75% belli, to attack Region B... what things should it consider before attacking? It could 1) consider # of bordering regions, 2) consider their relationships, 3) determine if any may with to join the war effort, 4) determine when to attack and 5) how to analyze if the war effort will actually yield a victory and when to cut losses and offer peace.
Thoughts...?
Some of the things you mentioned got me to thinking... currently, as a way to perhaps add some balance to areas of the world where the countries are as they are, currently unbalanced was to make stronger regions have less cause to attack others and in return be more likely to be attacked. When I say this I mean, countries are more likely to attack larger, stronger regions with less consequences due to the relations that are preset in the game.
Although we haven't settled on the exact final outcome of improvements in this area, I would hope that it won't turn out exactly the same and that we will be able to provide some options to easily modify these settings.
A different thing I'd also hope for is a bit more preparation on the part of the AI. I have created design docs with possible AI actions and tendencies that I hope will find their way into the game. For instance, if and AI can go to war, with little consequence it may just declare war, or it may prepare, in several different ways. The AI may decide to only defend or to attack after another region has declared war to take advantage of a situation. There are many plans to make AI actions more closely model what may happen in real life & what may happen if it was a human opponent running the AI country.
I would like to explore ideas in more detail with anyone... so feel free to comment. What may greatly help is mini scenarios. For example...
Region A has 75% belli, to attack Region B... what things should it consider before attacking? It could 1) consider # of bordering regions, 2) consider their relationships, 3) determine if any may with to join the war effort, 4) determine when to attack and 5) how to analyze if the war effort will actually yield a victory and when to cut losses and offer peace.
Thoughts...?
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A few questions before I go to indepth on a scenario:
1. Can the AI assess another country's (AI or player) combat potential?
2. Based on Question #1, does the AI then compare its own capabilities to that of a potential enemy. Keep in mind that when I make this assessment I will look at the enemy country's ground forces, find my ground forces weaknesses and then add combat multipliers by using either naval or aircraft. I also look at the terrain and determine what will be the best defensive terrain to destroy an advancing greater military.
3. Can the AI be made to utilize its air force, naval, and amphibious forces? This is probably the most disappointing military aspects of 2010. The AI need to utilize its military, not better, just use them. Currently AI aircraft do not attack unless I am the aggressor and close to one of their airbases/airfields. The AI naval assets are useless and never used.
I will have to sit down later and come up with better questions. At any rate, the AI needs to be able to assess itself against its neighbors (AI or player) in a way that allows it to understand that self-preservation is a must. It must also understand that if it is allied with a country that is being attacked that it should get "in the fight" not wait for the attacker to reach its forward line of troops (FLOT).
More later.
Thanks
Tony
1. Can the AI assess another country's (AI or player) combat potential?
2. Based on Question #1, does the AI then compare its own capabilities to that of a potential enemy. Keep in mind that when I make this assessment I will look at the enemy country's ground forces, find my ground forces weaknesses and then add combat multipliers by using either naval or aircraft. I also look at the terrain and determine what will be the best defensive terrain to destroy an advancing greater military.
3. Can the AI be made to utilize its air force, naval, and amphibious forces? This is probably the most disappointing military aspects of 2010. The AI need to utilize its military, not better, just use them. Currently AI aircraft do not attack unless I am the aggressor and close to one of their airbases/airfields. The AI naval assets are useless and never used.
I will have to sit down later and come up with better questions. At any rate, the AI needs to be able to assess itself against its neighbors (AI or player) in a way that allows it to understand that self-preservation is a must. It must also understand that if it is allied with a country that is being attacked that it should get "in the fight" not wait for the attacker to reach its forward line of troops (FLOT).
More later.
Thanks
Tony
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Legend, 1, 2, and 3 are all pretty much part and parcel of the same question. The AI should be able to look at all neighboring regions, compare Belli and diplo relations between all neighbors and the target...and between them and itself. It should have a vague judgment not only of who will join in such a conflict..but on which side. A side note of this is that human regions should be able to ascertain at least basic belli and diplo relations between neighbors. 2010 leaves you guessing at something that any diplomatic corps would be able to find out.
#4 is a bit of a sticky wicket. Who has the larger buildcap? If larger, is the neighbor using it? Tech level and who is researching faster. Who is improving diplomatically with neighbors to a greater degree? (or deteriorating). Armed forces manpower levels. Can the region keep growing without taking those natural resources? All these things (and more I'm sure) could play vital roles in any decision to attack. If the neighbor will eventually outgrow the aI region...Now is the time. If the original AI region is growing/learning faster, or making new friends, then perhaps later would be better.
#5 Most of this can be done by simple comparisons of manpower/unit losses, and a quick look at the map. If you are losing troops 2 to 1 and they have captured over half of your region, perhaps negotiations might work better. Buildcap and tech level would play a part as well. A more advanced region with a newly larger buildcap might recover from initial losses to make a comeback. We all have seen some of the flowerstack anthills swarm over superior quality troops at the beginning of a conflict.
I'm at lunch, so this is all I have time for now...
#4 is a bit of a sticky wicket. Who has the larger buildcap? If larger, is the neighbor using it? Tech level and who is researching faster. Who is improving diplomatically with neighbors to a greater degree? (or deteriorating). Armed forces manpower levels. Can the region keep growing without taking those natural resources? All these things (and more I'm sure) could play vital roles in any decision to attack. If the neighbor will eventually outgrow the aI region...Now is the time. If the original AI region is growing/learning faster, or making new friends, then perhaps later would be better.
#5 Most of this can be done by simple comparisons of manpower/unit losses, and a quick look at the map. If you are losing troops 2 to 1 and they have captured over half of your region, perhaps negotiations might work better. Buildcap and tech level would play a part as well. A more advanced region with a newly larger buildcap might recover from initial losses to make a comeback. We all have seen some of the flowerstack anthills swarm over superior quality troops at the beginning of a conflict.
I'm at lunch, so this is all I have time for now...
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
- ainsworth74
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Whoa! I didn't americans were aware of the existance of cricket, let alone the use of one of its terms!Lightbringer wrote:sticky wicket
Where is light and what have you done with him you evil Aussie/South African/Pakistani/Indian/Banglideshi/Windiean/Sri Lankan/New Zealander (delete as required)!
All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
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Alternatively, who cares who has the larger build cap?!?!Lightbringer wrote:
...#4 is a bit of a sticky wicket. Who has the larger buildcap?...
This is one concept in diplomacy that I have never agreed with. In real life, nearly no country takes offense to potential capability; however, they can take dire exception to action, activities and policy. If disparity in build cap were a real issue, Lichtenstein would be declaring war on somebody every other week.
Regards,
Feltan
P.S. Ainsworth, you would be surprised. Many Americans have ties to England (and Germany, Poland, etc). Personally, "me Mum" is from England, and roast beef and Yorkshire pudding were Sunday staples for dinner. I've been to England a few times, and got good and drunk the very first time at a pub just off the Uxbridge Road with my cousin -- and we were barely able to see over the bar!
ETA Five Minutes ......
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My comment was only in jest of course
. Its just the fairly popular view of americans with regard to cricket is that you dont have a clue. Far be it from me to say you have no idea about sunday lunch and pubs!
P.S. I would agree with Feltan that build cap doesnt matter its more a case of what you do with it. If a country on my border has 60 slots, but is only using 10 im not going to be worried. But when they fill all 60 then i will get concerned. It always annoyed me this treatment of build cap in 2010.
P.P.S I wouldnt laugh at the threat lichtenstien declearing war on you!
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/l ... ully_tests
![:-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
P.S. I would agree with Feltan that build cap doesnt matter its more a case of what you do with it. If a country on my border has 60 slots, but is only using 10 im not going to be worried. But when they fill all 60 then i will get concerned. It always annoyed me this treatment of build cap in 2010.
P.P.S I wouldnt laugh at the threat lichtenstien declearing war on you!
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/l ... ully_tests
All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
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Feltan,
My inference was not that buildcap should effect the AI region's Belli. What I was trying to say was that the ability to build massively larger amounts of units than one's self should be a statistic that helps decide if war is a good idea or not. If AI region A has a buildcap of 5, and AI region B has a buildcap of 500, then Region A might want to consider a different plan, whether they hate Region B's guts or not. It had nothing to do with the current uses for buildcap numbers (belli)...it had everything to do with the harsh reality of how many boots on the ground a possible enemy might be producing. (Edit: Meaning, a large neighboring buildcap is a reason for an AI region not to attack.)
sincerely,
Light
P.S. I am well read, "Sticky Wicket" is an old and rather amusing sounding saying...much like Dagnabbit. I only know it comes from cricket, not what it means in relation to that slow motion sport.![:P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
My inference was not that buildcap should effect the AI region's Belli. What I was trying to say was that the ability to build massively larger amounts of units than one's self should be a statistic that helps decide if war is a good idea or not. If AI region A has a buildcap of 5, and AI region B has a buildcap of 500, then Region A might want to consider a different plan, whether they hate Region B's guts or not. It had nothing to do with the current uses for buildcap numbers (belli)...it had everything to do with the harsh reality of how many boots on the ground a possible enemy might be producing. (Edit: Meaning, a large neighboring buildcap is a reason for an AI region not to attack.)
sincerely,
Light
P.S. I am well read, "Sticky Wicket" is an old and rather amusing sounding saying...much like Dagnabbit. I only know it comes from cricket, not what it means in relation to that slow motion sport.
![:P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
Last edited by Lightbringer on Jul 17 2007, edited 2 times in total.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
- ainsworth74
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I dont know, I was just pulling numbers out of the air to illustrate a point. Right now it is not possible to know numbers of build slots, however there was disscusion somewhere saying that knowing the numbers of buildslots filled would be the sort of infomation fairly easy to get hold of through espionage. So I was assuming that it would be possible to tell in 2020, and besides there is no reason why the AI couldnt be given the infomation, even tho the human cant. Give the AI a helping hand.tonystowe wrote:Ainsworth,
This is probably a very stupid question, however, how do you know if the AI is producing 60 or anything less than that?
P.S. Dont start insulting our sports, or... or... or else!
![:wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
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I may have mis-stated my point. Actually, it was a general comment on the current implementation using build caps, not on your suggestion regarding self-preservation -- which I agree with.Lightbringer wrote:Feltan,
My inference was not that buildcap should effect the AI region's Belli. What I was trying to say was that the ability to build massively larger amounts of units than one's self should be a statistic that helps decide if war is a good idea or not. If AI region has a buildcap of 5, and AI region b has a buildcap of 500, then Region A might want to consider a different plan, whether they hate Region B's guts or not. It had nothing to do with the current uses for buildcap numbers (belli)...it had everything to do with the harsh reality of how many boots on the ground a possible enemy might be producing.
sincerely,
Light
P.S. I am well read, "Sticky Wicket" is an old and rather amusing sounding saying...much like Dagnabbit. I only know it comes from cricket, not what it means in relation to that slow motion sport.
Regards,
Feltan
P.S. Ainsworth, insulting your sports? How would anyone know? I thought it was required to be blind drunk to attend a sporting event in the UK. Don't you think it might be months before anyone notices that Beckham has moved to Los Angeles?
ETA Five Minutes ......
- ainsworth74
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Well yes, we just dont like to publisise the fact... Beckham is moving to LAFeltan wrote:P.S. Ainsworth, insulting your sports? How would anyone know? I thought it was required to be blind drunk to attend a sporting event in the UK. Don't you think it might be months before anyone notices that Beckham has moved to Los Angeles?
![:o](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
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Ahem!
Back to diplomacy please.
What are some other scenarios beyond build cap? Someone compared a build cap of 5 to 500... If A) the AI compares build cap to determine threat levels and then B) decides to not attack, then what should it do?
From these discussions and our own designs, the end result will require rules. And these rules will need to include frequencies, such as, AI regions must compare build caps once every 15-30 game days. When they compare they should do one of several things based on outcome...1,2,3,4,5 ... etc.
This is the sort of thing we need.
Back to diplomacy please.
What are some other scenarios beyond build cap? Someone compared a build cap of 5 to 500... If A) the AI compares build cap to determine threat levels and then B) decides to not attack, then what should it do?
From these discussions and our own designs, the end result will require rules. And these rules will need to include frequencies, such as, AI regions must compare build caps once every 15-30 game days. When they compare they should do one of several things based on outcome...1,2,3,4,5 ... etc.
This is the sort of thing we need.