My IFR Experiment

Talk and Learn about the military aspects of the game.

Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, Moderators

SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

I am going to experiment with inflight refueling. The idea is that I am able to keep my intterceptors with my bombers.

I will use:

B-52 (Upstrength)
Eurofighter 1 (normal)
L-1011 tristar KC mk1 (upstrengthed)

and

A long distance.

I am building the tankers at the moment and the bombers but once they have finnished I will carry out the experiment.

At first i was thinking of sending it to Canada, this idea I liked, and will carry out.

It will not be a bombing raid as they are my ally but to see if I can cross the Atlantic on one tank of fuel.

First try will be the tanker flying to an airbase in either the USA or Canada, the interceptors will be given an escort order. As the tanker is slower they should keep up with it and be fueled from its cargo bay constantly.

Second try will be a bit more complicated order wise, but if all goes well I will use it to bomb targets over Spain from Britain once I have taken France. HEre we go:

Tanker will be given and escort order on the bomber, the interceptor will be given escort order on tanker. Bomber will be given the order to bomb. For the idea to work I have had to rule out using any other bomber but the b-52, but I am planning on building a lot of them so it doesn't bother me too much. I do have some stealths but they are missile carriers and so I only built 6 sqdn's of them. I can only use the b-52 as it is the only strategic bomber slower then the tanker, as the tanker has to be faster then the bomber to keep up.

Will report results once i have carried it out, however, feel free to comment on your experiences (if any) of IFR in game.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

and a question for the goats aswell. The blackbird is IFR capable. It is also a high air plane. Will it come down to mid air if it is told to escort a tanker in order for it to get enough fuel to get near the target.

i am planning on using long range recon with these if my other experiments work. I will escort the tanker to within a decent range of the target, leave the tanker in the air, and send the blackbird to do recon, then send blackbird back to tanker, and tell it to escort tanker back home. This way i might be able to carry out recons about 15000km plus away with them, despite their range only being about 9600km.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by Balthagor »

Yes, the Blackbird should come down to mid air to refuel. IIRC I did test for this. It was never reported as a bug so should be working.

You could also some helos that are IFR capable over the water to see how that works. Again, no bugs ever reported, but while you're experimenting... 8)
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

Balthagor wrote:Yes, the Blackbird should come down to mid air to refuel. IIRC I did test for this. It was never reported as a bug so should be working.
Does it do it when it is escorting the bomber, low on fuel or when it is in the same/nearby hex?
Balthagor wrote:You could also some helos that are IFR capable over the water to see how that works. Again, no bugs ever reported, but while you're experimenting... 8)
Ok, i'll test that aswell, but i'll have to build the helos first, the planes are nearly built, do you think my tristar with 33000km range and 350 tons supplies will be able to keep 3 eurofighters in the air from the caribean to the falklands?

I am gonna try it, and then maybe moving 1 or 2 fighters from flaklands straight to Canada. It is like 11000km straight down, but i can't straight down as I have no transit treaty. So to get to the Falklands I have to fly to Canada, then Caribean, then onto Falklands.

Thx for telling me my Blackbirds will work.

Also, is there anyway of telling how far I will be able to send them without trial and error?

If not, i will post the approx range I got on them for 1 plane, 2 planes, 3 planes. i only intend to have 3 interceptors escorting my tanker, although a blackbird might also be joining them. I am going to keep it flying for ages just to see what happens, but without crashing the tanker itself.

i will be using Sea stallions with range of 900km for Helo IFR, I will merely cross the Atlantic and see if both survive.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

It is best to have all other planes escort the slowest plane, if you are sending interceptors, have them escort, if your taking a b-52 then escort the b-52 with tanker and then escort tanker with int.

UK to Canada leg:

2 tankers, 6 interceptors set out.
2 tankers, 6 int landed in Canada.

Conclusion of first leg - My int's moved a bit dodgily with my tankers but this doesn't bother me, they made it, and I also realised I actually have more range then I thought the planes being more effiecient probably because they had to slow down to the speed of the tanker, and also, the distance might have been a little less in one case and more in another.

Canada to Caribean leg:

2 tankers, 6 interceptors set out.
All crews landed safely.

Caribean to Flakland Isles leg:

2 tankers, 6 interceptors set out.
All crews safe

What I have noticed is after a while the tankers will use their cargo (if any)(maybe they do maybe they don't to resupply others?) to refuel themselves. On this leg they used just under half of their fuel but all of their supplies.

The return trip going straight to Canada without stopping on the way:
1 tanker escorted by 1 int
1 tanker on its own

I gave the lone tanker a headstart to make sure they don't meet each other. The lone tanker used just over a third of a tank so i think it is about 11-12000km between Canada and the Flaklands going around south america and flying up the atlantic.

For some reason the int made a crash landing?! The tanker was still full of fuel! It went dodgy just about halfway, I figured it out and stopped the problem, for some reason, the tanker was too slow and the eurofighter couldnt keep up and fell behind, then when it tried to correct course it couldn't and ran out of fuel, second time I got it back to the Caribean. Is there any way around it that can be easily done. Also can I set way points so that I can click on Caribean then another button that will make it go to Canada once it has reach the Caribean?

1 tanker in Canada.
1 tanker and 1 int in Canada via Caribean.

I am now going to use IDS Tornado's, 4 sqdn's of them, and move them to Falklands like I did with Eurofighters, I have not done calculations for this so I am guessing. I got refueled by an Ameircan tanker on route, but I have decided to leave 1 sqdn in the Caribean due to fuel issues and because I will need airsupport there soon I think. I am also gonig to leave a sqdn of int there aswell.

4 got to Canada easily.
Struggled to get to Caribean
All got to the Falklands but they used most of the planes fuel and all of its supplies. The Tornado is really thirsty and has a short range which added to this problem, but it still covered a very longe distance nontheless. Try to figure out which planes are the most thirsty, don't just take range as an indication as planes with smaller tanks might be able to fly further per unit of fuel.

also i have sorta figured out how to judge whether or not your planes will make it, it was inspired by something I did in a BSAC lecture. This is only rough and should be used as a guide, especially as distance is hard to judge as you might have to go around countries. Also from my experiment, the planes are going slower if they are escorting and so save fuel there I think it should be right (pritty much) if plane is slower then tanker, but will be over estimates (by how much i dunno) if the plane is faster then the tanker.

Divide your fuel by the amount of range on your tanker.(no.1)
Divide your fuel by the amount of range on plane(s).(no.2)
Then enter your distance.
Times distance by no.1
Times distance by no.2
Add these 2 figures together.
This will show fuel used by both planes in total. If it is less then what you tanker has then you can go. If it is higher then what your tanker has then don't.

I worked it out to make sure it worked in theory, now I am trying it for real, this is what I worked out:

0.3 (no.1)
0.2*3=0.6 (no.2)
distance = 5000km
1500 fuel
3000 fuel
3000+1500=4500 total fuel used
9547-4500=5047 spare fuel

Tanker and interceptors will reach their target.
Might just make 10000km if the airstrip is the nearest.

This experiment has been useful and I hope it has made some people (well me at least) want to use IFR again.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

quick question I forgot to ask before, but when planes run out of supplies after bombing, if I give them the order to escort, will they actually do it or just do it for a second and then run off back to base?

If they don't it will be brill on multiplayer as you could suprise attack an enemy players capital and bomb it!
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by Balthagor »

I don't understand the question. who's out of supply? The one you're escorting or the one with the escort order?
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

Escort is the bombers.

Also, I tried it with the f-14 tomcat, and I lost all 6 i sent becuase they couldn't keep up with the tankers. They were trying to follow the path but by the time they got there the tanker was gone and this kept happening until they ran out of fuel.

Should I try lowering the speed of the tanker or increasing the speed of the escort so it can keep up or both.Or do you want me to try that aswell (i have no f-14's, but if it happened with the eurofighter when I tried to move it from Canada to Falklands in one move).

Also, is there a way to issue a waypoint order, so that it can spend less time issuing orders to go around (not due to IFR but France) I just want to be able to click on tanker, click on a Canadian airstrip, then my Caribean one, then the Falklands one and then letting it do it and only have to wait to get to the Falkland's instead of issuing about 4 orders which draw me away from the front.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by Balthagor »

No waypoints, SR2020 doesn't even have that. I'm keeping up on the forum but I don't really have time to do much testing on this area currently. It is of some interest as the model is 99% the same in 2020 so any issues you find would likely still be a problem, but currently this is lower on my priority list.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
wrex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 47
Joined: Jun 29 2008

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by wrex »

SGTscuba wrote:This experiment has been useful and I hope it has made some people (well me at least) want to use IFR again.
very usefull.

has this been tested with boats? i tried to do this with some transports and destroyers and it left my navy scattered across the pacific.
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

You have actually used IFR wrex?

Also, I don't know whether planes can rearm ships but helo's can. but for rearming ships I tend to use large transports to keep them supplied and keep them in supplied waters unless I have to transit somewhere, i which case, I have 1 transport ship escorting each stack of ships (this works well for me as I have supply ships at middle of battlegroup, and have six stacks around it)

I will try speed up the fighter planes to see whether they will actually be able to keep up with the tanker, I will report back my findings.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

Ok, I have sped up my escort from normal speed to fast speed.

I will try this with a mixture of aircraft I have:
Tornado, sending it to Canada it kept right no the tail of the tanker and by the end it was slightly infront but still getting fuel.

F14, last time I tried they couldn't even get to Canada without crashing because they couldn't keep up with the pathing. Good news for me, it got to Canada. Now I am going to send it straight to the Falklands. It kept right on the tail, and makes me think a bit more about IFR.

Tornado, sending it straight to the Falklands. It got there.

Unfortunately, the super thirsty f14, used all the tankers fuel, and so I lost both about half way down south america.

So if you are planning on moving planes long distance, DO NOT USE THE F14 Unless you have stops on the way. Although, if they are not super strengthed, they would have made it probably. The lesson learnt here is valuable as I have only been using normal (except for tanker) but then i put uneffieceint super strength with it and expected it to work, how dumb I was.

1 f14 is the most for the journey from Canada to Falklands via Caribean.

I can have 3 EUrofighters or 2(maybe 3) Tornado's, although they don't have as long as range attack as the f14, they are easier to move around and also outclass anything that the south americans have.

Ok, next plan, I will escort my bombers with tanker and Tornado's. The bombers have normal speed, the tanker has fast speed and the Tornado's have fastest speed, the thinking being that they will be able to keep up iwth each other, they will escort bombers to Canada. i will be watching to see how they arrive.

Because i had the bombers at the front and the tankers in the middle, the thisty bombers sapped the tanker a lot, and took all of its supplies. But I managed to keep 3 bombers, 1 tanker and 2 tornado's in the air. However, for the return journey, I will have 2 tankers escorting the bombers and 1 Tornado escorting each tanker. However, The fighters were at the back, this might be a disadvantage in combat but I think that by the time their fighters have reached you you will be turning away and so they will run into your fighters instead of your bombers which will give them a nasty suprise.

One tanker fell behind, but it was still following and so could be viewed as acting as an ass guard.

All planes made it back, and I will sned them all to Canada again to see if they can all keep with the formation again.

For some unexplain reason (bug i think) once the planes get to either side they don't want to land, even if there is nothing else on the airstrip. I had to manually select them all and drag them onto the airfield.

Now I will try have everything esorting the bombers.

It worked better this time, I had forgot to set one of the tankers to fast speed and so it got left behind, but caught up when i made it go fast.

All got there, but b-52's didn't want to land for some strange reason.

Now, I have told the everything to escort the tanker.

well this time, everything landed like it was supposed to. This is awefully strange. Anyway, next thing on list to do.

I will escort my blackbird to the Falklands,they have 9500km range and only 600 fuel which makes them super efficient aircraft as they only use 0.06 per km super strengthed and 0.04 fuel per km normal. This makes them excellent planes for long transits, I will move 1 sqdn with a tanker to the Falklands via Canada, Whilst another will go on its own fuel to the Caribean via Canada.

The F-22 is also an inefficient plane with 0.4 fuel per km.
This compares with the 0.5 fuel per km of the f14d. Although at super strength it is something like 0.8 fuel per km (I was using super strengthed ones).

Do not use super strengthed air units unless you are going only short distances. I am now building normal strength units, and getting rid of my super strength ones(except tankers and b-52s). Tankers and Bombers with long ranges should be super strengthed as they will be better off with more planes.

From now on I am for bombing raids having some bombers at the front with the escort near the back. I will send the tankers to the same place and then move them back once the bombers have gone, although putting them on patrol over the area might be a better option to support the bombers by having several groups of fighters in the air, patrolling the route.

Now I will do something at the devs request, I will try make a Super Stallion (well its a stallion) fly to Canada with IFR.

The Blackbird easily flies on its own to Canada and then onto the Caribean at a very fast speed and even passes a flight of a tanker and 2 Tornado's on the way. I am sending the other Blackbird with the tanker straight from Canada to the Falkland's. The tankers will then all return to the UK ready for helo op. Once I have proved I can get to Canada with a helo and if it is done with a decent amount of the tank left, I will load troops into the helo, fly it over, take the frenchie town there, and then fly back to the UK. Then i will carry out a similar op on some German land north of the UK.

The stallion i am using is the ch-53e super stallion. It has at normal strength about 0.33 fuel per km which makes it roughly as effiecient as a Raptor.

I only suggest using the tristar one that i am using now (I only have looked at Uk and US as they tend to make the best), however, I don't know if there is any better designs out there and the US might have a better one that you will have to research, if you find a better tanker then the tristar then please post it here.

The distance to the target area isabout 3700km away from Ireland or was it Anglesea? Either way, I am going to fly helo to Candian land nearby, Loiter for a little bit, then fly all the way back.

Goods news yet again, Helo's finally got built, I had the tristar follow the helo, they both got to Canada, it used less then a quarter of a tank to get there, i didn't stop at a base, I left a little loiter time (to allow unloading in future) and then sent them straight back, they used in total less then half of a tank, so yes, helos do get refueled over water.

Any more IFR things you would like me to try?
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by Balthagor »

Nothing comes to mind, but I am focused on other things ATM. I've made this a sticky so that others can benefit or offer ideas.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
SGTscuba
General
Posts: 2544
Joined: Dec 08 2007
Location: Tipton, UK

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by SGTscuba »

thanks for making it a stick, I was about to ask you myself, and yes, I am willing to try out any idea's in game (even if nothing to do with IFR).

Also, I found out, if you increase the speed of ships, their effiiency drops, it was like half of what it should be at their fstest, I don't know whether this happens with planes or not, but be careful. I had to slow my nuke carriers from fastest to normal, which made their journey time really long.
My SR:U Model Project, get the latest and post suggestions here:

http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28040
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22083
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: My IFR Experiment

Post by Balthagor »

SGTscuba wrote:...if you increase the speed of ships, their effiiency drops...
This was intentionally done, consider it like running on "high alert" all the time. Crews start to wear out is the reasoning.

Rule is applied to all classes and branches.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
Post Reply

Return to “Military - Defense and Operations Departments”