Upgrade obsolete units

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mrgenie
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 923
Joined: Jul 08 2008

Upgrade obsolete units

Post by mrgenie »

This kept coming back. I saw people talking about it and yes the claims by Balthagor that you can't simply turn a Patton into an Abrams or a King Tiger into a Leopard - yes that's true!

But something - got me a bad taste in the mouth anyway, because the current concept simply felt wrong. Why?

Read on an you'll find this a very interesting concept I came up with. Actually 2 new concepts which make the game more realistic and very interesting in differences of military policies.

Draft military vs professional military! That's a VERY SIGNIFICANT concept in real world military which isn't implemented in SR but could be done easily - lot's of work as it demands a complete overhaul of the unit programming - but easy.. just a lot of work for both the person doing the UNIT file and the programmer, but not a difficult task at all!

The concept is simple, but first the reasoning.

Here's the reasoning, why I find "lack up upgrading units" that something is missing in the game.

My units get experience! The moment I scrap them, that experience is gone.

In reality a tanker, pilot, infantry doesn't just die - just because I give him another tank or airplane or a Javelin to shoot with. Just because Ukrainians got a lot of Panzerfaust Version 3 or Javelin missiles they didn't die and new units came across which needed basic training again and first needed experience on the battlefield.

Of course these weapons are handed first to the most experienced troops! You don't "Scrap" the experienced ones LOL

Sure they need again some more training with the newly equipment - but right now the game says if I have a tanker of an original M1 Abrams and put him in an M1 Abrams SEP 1 then he's "scrapped" aka "dead", he dies/that's what scrapping implicates, and that soldier needs to be replaced by a complete new newbie.

I never seen a soldier/pilot/tanker die just because the army got new stuff :lol:

So yeah - the experience is the key issue here why I think just scrapping both the personnel and the equipment is false.

I totally agree with Balthagor though, that indeed you can't upgrade a Patton to an Abrams. True true.

But the concept of losing 100% of the experience - which can only happen if the crew dies - is also not true.

So the new concept all units in the game are split into "equipment" and "personnel"

So you have categories: fighter jet crew, bomber jet crew, aircraft carrier crew, infantry crew, tank crew, artillery crew, etc..
each of them holds subcategories: experience level 0-10, experience 11-20, experience 21-30 etc..
Now each of these subcategories of the main categories holds the pool, the amount of crew UNITS I have available within this pool.

So if a scrap a tank - where the crew has level 38 experience - they go into the subcategory of 31-40...
And if then I build new tanks, first tanks will be using the highest levels of experienced troops, and then the next level and the next and the next all the way down to the newbies..

The "equipment" as I scrap it - will basically follow the current implemented rules..
some of the steel, resources becomes available again.. for melting it and making new equipment.. just as in reality recycling works.

Now of course - there needs to be some visualization above each unit - which level of experience my units have.. that's then a GUI thing.


The 2nd concept which hooks into this concept of splitting crew and equipment - to have "upgrade" capabilities close to realism - where I upgrade the equipment.. to my experienced troops.

Is the concept of draft service, draft service 1 year, draft 2 years, or full professional military

Why is this significant?

Well if I draft people for a service of 1 year - they can't be much experienced in that year .. so my pool of available experienced personnel ...

Let's say every 6 months I'm training units they go to the next level.. but if after 1 year they stop.. the max level they achieve by training is lvl 1, 0 being the newbie..
if I have 2 year - they can reach lvl3.. the longer training/draft/mandatory service - the more it cost me but the higher level of experience my crew have..

Also war speeds it up - if fighting experience is boosted skyhigh - ... obviously.. nothing better than the real thing.

But a professional army where people serving 10+ years.. the pool starts to fill even at lvl 10.. the highest level of experienced crews...

but also - if they achieve lvl 8 or 9 by wars.. by fighting... but my country only finances a draft for 1 or 2 years.. then over time very quickly I lose that experience as my fighters may have gained that experience - but I'm not financing a professional army where they remain in the military for many more years.. I'm doing it cheap, just using inexperienced draft units I send into the war.. so my experienced fighters then quickly go home and I lose their experience.

This also has to be considered then on the battlefield.. as the crew even still at war - reaches their max service time of 1 year - they'll be flown out back home .. and newbies take that equipment..

This makes the game very dynamic and realistic .. as "professional army" vs "draft 1 year service" suddenly becomes very realistic and a smaller professional military can easily beat a large military that relies on inexperienced fighters.

Ukraine-Russia right now a perfect example.. Ukrainians being trained highly professional by western allies while Putin sends inexperienced rookies to the frontlines (granted along with hardened vets) but we clearly see where vets engage rookie units - the rookies have huge disadvantages.

So to handle this every now and then coming back request of "upgrades" of units..

We can do that - by splitting crew and equipment..

you don't upgrade the equipment.. but a professional army crew where people serve 20 or 30 years.. can indeed maintain their experience and get "upgrades" by simply getting assigned to newer equipment.


This is a brainstorming straight from my head as "idea" how to solve this request.. it's up to BG of course to do something with it.. or not.
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Tnarg
Colonel
Posts: 278
Joined: Feb 06 2008

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by Tnarg »

Here is where battle group templates mentioned in another post could be useful as well. A battle group
Template say armor brigade draws both personal and equipment. Over time the equipment could be swapped out but the personal and experience stays. If equipment and personal are destroyed I could see the experience being degraded as fresh new troops are brought in. Equipment would be drawn automatically restocking the battle group if equipment is available. Could have a button to tell the ai where to draw equipment from: “best role unit”, “closest reserved unit”, “use captured equipment that fits role”

Also a function on where do all those old swapped out units go:

Do you want to automatically scrap them for Military Goods,

Do you want them to go your boneyards as a reserve for a rainy day

Do you want them placed on the market, and the ai will automatically sell them to other countries for you. With prompts of course who the units goto. (SGTscuba’s SUT unit trading system!)
mrgenie
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 923
Joined: Jul 08 2008

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by mrgenie »

Tnarg wrote: Sep 29 2022 Also a function on where do all those old swapped out units go:

Do you want to automatically scrap them for Military Goods,

Do you want them to go your boneyards as a reserve for a rainy day

Do you want them placed on the market, and the ai will automatically sell them to other countries for you. With prompts of course who the units goto. (SGTscuba’s SUT unit trading system!)
This I like - it would make "political decisions on policies" another level of depth in the game...

Also the last part - sell on market..
allies only?
non-allies too but at least good standing with one..
anyone on the market as long as not under embargo/sanctions..

Anyway - there's really a lot of depth in policies and features on policies that can be added to the game to make the game much more interesting beyond just fighting wars.
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arakan94
Lieutenant
Posts: 70
Joined: Oct 10 2018
Human: Yes

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by arakan94 »

This is very good idea - experience should be at least partly transferable.. I'd love to see dividing equipment and manpower (something little like Hearts of Iron divisions but not as detailed) meaning you could replace the tanks in your tank battalion and so on..

This would be the base equipment for a given unit type and it could be either replaced by new type or upgraded to newer version of the same type (as in Abrams SEPv2 to SEPv3). Same system could be used for retrofitting ships.

On top of that, there could be a "loadout" for certain unit types, which would make them more configurable and you could basically modify base stats of deployed unit (with some delay).. Related post: viewtopic.php?p=201530#p201530
evildari
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 629
Joined: Aug 10 2017
Human: Yes

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by evildari »

mrgenie wrote: Sep 28 2022 ...
Sure they need again some more training with the newly equipment - but right now the game says if I have a tanker of an original M1 Abrams and put him in an M1 Abrams SEP 1 then he's "scrapped" aka "dead", he dies/that's what scrapping implicates, and that soldier needs to be replaced by a complete new newbie.
...
The 2nd concept which hooks into this concept of splitting crew and equipment - to have "upgrade" capabilities close to realism - where I upgrade the equipment.. to my experienced troops.

Is the concept of draft service, draft service 1 year, draft 2 years, or full professional military
...
Thank you mrgenie, exactly what i thought - thanks for writing the whole reasoning (so i dont have to :lol: )

short version what imo needs to be done:
1. split crew and equipment
2. if crew is not tied to equipment either put them in reserve to retain some degree of proficiency
3. if crew gets new equipment (of same class - as mrgenie already wrote) reduce experience levels
4. variable draft system using maybe the reserve system (-> 2.) to train crews before deploying at choosen experience level
5. and repairing units does not automagical replace lost experience - but draws from available crew reserves (closest match to previous exp.levels desired - then reduced by weighted ratio)
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
mrgenie
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 923
Joined: Jul 08 2008

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by mrgenie »

evildari wrote: Oct 08 2022
mrgenie wrote: Sep 28 2022 ...
Sure they need again some more training with the newly equipment - but right now the game says if I have a tanker of an original M1 Abrams and put him in an M1 Abrams SEP 1 then he's "scrapped" aka "dead", he dies/that's what scrapping implicates, and that soldier needs to be replaced by a complete new newbie.
...
The 2nd concept which hooks into this concept of splitting crew and equipment - to have "upgrade" capabilities close to realism - where I upgrade the equipment.. to my experienced troops.

Is the concept of draft service, draft service 1 year, draft 2 years, or full professional military
...
Thank you mrgenie, exactly what i thought - thanks for writing the whole reasoning (so i dont have to :lol: )

short version what imo needs to be done:
1. split crew and equipment
2. if crew is not tied to equipment either put them in reserve to retain some degree of proficiency
3. if crew gets new equipment (of same class - as mrgenie already wrote) reduce experience levels
4. variable draft system using maybe the reserve system (-> 2.) to train crews before deploying at choosen experience level
5. and repairing units does not automagical replace lost experience - but draws from available crew reserves (closest match to previous exp.levels desired - then reduced by weighted ratio)
Thanks for the summary - yes I just write here "ideas" as a result of "brainstorming" and we'll see what BG considers to implement and not.. writing a summary is the quality of the writer - I'm not a writer hehehehe
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sparky282
Colonel
Posts: 384
Joined: Dec 31 2011
Human: Yes

Re: Upgrade obsolete units

Post by sparky282 »

this sounds very interesting I'd just like the ability to upgrade to a unit of the same type for example upgrading a Euro fighter from block 1 to block 2 etc
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