Errors in revenue

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moherpower
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Errors in revenue

Post by moherpower »

where my money go look at 2 screans.

Oct 19
treasury 167,524 M
error1.jpg
Oct 20
Treasury 167,430 M
error2.jpg
Simple substracting 167,524 - 167,430 = 94M deficit but as you can see on error2.jpg game says i have deficit -37M and trade -1,53M so
WHERE OVER 55Milions GO??? Can this game make simple math?

I can't include save game file becouse it is too large even when i compress it..
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Balthagor
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Balthagor »

The game economic system has been discussed and analyzed many times. There are lots of threads on this topic already. The values will be very accurate until you are dealing with very large numbers (100s of billions+) the engine has to use what is called floating point math which can cause some rounding errors, but these have been found to be very small, usually under 0.1% of the proper values. Making the math more precise would lower overall game performance.

Since development for Supreme Ruler Ultimate has ended, no need for the savegame. During development for the next SR title, we will consider the impacts of changing the underlying math system.
Chris Latour
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moherpower
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by moherpower »

well my daily income 1,407M and i lose 55M so lost is around 3,9% so this is 39x more than you declared.

And for example my daily budget for research is 60M
Daily military budget is 16M
and my daily income from domestic sale is 200M

So it is not a small impact on my economy. and for worse i dont know where those money goes, so i could cut that spendings.

and we are at 1,4 Bilon right now not over 100B so noting you wrote apply to my situation.

Maby this game could roud up not round down so i could have 55M in plus not in minus.
evildari
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by evildari »

Unfortunately BG likes to use wrong relations to downplay serious issues.
Look here about your issue and the devs reaction:
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=28398
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=28170
back then they had enough time to fix this problem.
Maybe i should start saying this: if this issue or as BG would say "Decision" is still the same for their future titles then its one sale less...
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Balthagor
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Balthagor »

Well, Galactic Ruler doesn't use money...

As I said, for SR Next Gen, we will re-evaluate and do extensive testing. Community feedback still has us convinced that the majority of our players are more concerned with performance than a bit of rounding errors for super rich regions. Rounding errors that, over the average of a long game, should mostly balance out.
Chris Latour
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Rosalis
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Rosalis »

Maybe they are concerned with performance because economy gameplay is boring. No feedback, just magic with zero control, besides pumping out cash. But even then after all this intense testing for SRU, can you hand over a save game of China 2020 lets say 5 years long? Maybe compare the demand from the first year with the fifth. Rich get richer, poor stay poor which isnt very realistic. There should be opportunities of growth, like SR2020.
Rosalis
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Rosalis »

Ok since a day has past im willing to put some stuff straight. I like the economy system but i feel SR2020 was more accurate, especially compared to the 2020 scenarios in SRU. CW is a little better in SRU, so yeah i guess thats due to rounding numbers. Not sure why 2020 scenarios got to suffer for that, but oh well i guess thats one of the negatives of having multiple timelines.

In the latest patches there seems to be alot of stuff improved, so thats great. Its really important that the AI understands when it makes money or not. Especially since its more driven to a world economy instead of a hidden region with good multipliers compared to SR2020, which prolly had some complaints in its own. So yeah i guess just keep it up. Too much ambition might hurt you. Dont improve performance by removing the ability for US to come to Europe, instead make money more important and the responsability of a bigger region to protect its allies (and own assets). Im sorry if i come over as harsh, thats just the way i talk in real life. Say whats on my mind. Ofcourse not all has to improve growth and all, but to have penalties on ai regions, with no opportunity to grow besides player giving what they need, is not the way to improve.
moherpower
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by moherpower »

Balthagor wrote:
Oct 15 2020
Well, Galactic Ruler doesn't use money...

As I said, for SR Next Gen, we will re-evaluate and do extensive testing. Community feedback still has us convinced that the majority of our players are more concerned with performance than a bit of rounding errors for super rich regions. Rounding errors that, over the average of a long game, should mostly balance out.

Well really??? than why you said this?
Balthagor wrote:
Oct 14 2020
The game economic system has been discussed and analyzed many times. There are lots of threads on this topic already.
If really comunity does not care about economy in this game than why you said above? A lot of threads and you are still not convincedthat someting is wrong? Than what have we do? A belly dance becouse no other reasons does't get to you.
But lets make a simple test ... give me 3,9% of your revenue and lets call it a "bit of rounding error".

What i try to show you is that -- 3,9% is not a small rounding error. this orror ocured when i upgraded game to latest version. maby there is w way to make downgrade?
evildari
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by evildari »

Balthagor wrote:
Oct 15 2020
Well, Galactic Ruler doesn't use money...

As I said, for SR Next Gen, we will re-evaluate and do extensive testing. Community feedback still has us convinced that the majority of our players are more concerned with performance than a bit of rounding errors for super rich regions. Rounding errors that, over the average of a long game, should mostly balance out.
1. Replace money with resources you want to use - if you still use similar data types and calculations you have the same issues too.
Also this issue is probably not limited to money but to all other resources like agriculture, petroleum, electricity,...

2. If you say performance there is already a discussion about it (short: a simple mathematic correct calculation is definitely less cpu-intensive than a single LOS-calculation).
But to performance in the sense of what a player can achieve per minute/hour - this error or in MS/BG-Speak "feature" cause a massive reduction in performance since the player (even and especially the computer player) has to spent a lot more time to get around this issue - and has the major chance to not get even as in my example if you lose >150% of your daily revenue.

so yes plz give me 150% of your revenues and call it a rounding error - your tax auditor will surely understand your declaration.
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Balthagor
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Balthagor »

moherpower wrote:
Oct 16 2020
than why you said this?
Because a handful of people feel very strongly about it and brought it up a number of times. Looking at the bulk of the discussion threads here and on our many other sites (Discord, Facebook, Steam forums) it is only one of many areas the community has asked about.

I understand that you're unhappy about the 55M, but with a treasury of 167,000M I find it hard to believe that had a significant impact on your game. You are looking at one isolated day. Our team is confident that over a long period of gameplay the rounding issues balance out and don't have a significant impact on the game.

There will be more investigation done, but not within the SRU engine or it's savegames. The engine has already changed significantly during the development of GR, we will wait for further testing until the SR engine has been updated. There is no benefit in testing on an older system. The economic system has not been significantly changed in years, this is not something related to the latest patch. That's also why I have confidence in the system, I've done deep analysis with savegames of my own and some provided by the community and every time I've been able to confirm the economic system is working as designed.
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Balthagor
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Balthagor »

@evildari - you still focus on the difference between income and expenses instead of the difference between what the treasury change should have been from one day to the next. And yes, those are different numbers. It is simply the fact that storing the number 123,456,789,812,234 is a problem but storing 123,456,789,000,000 is not.
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evildari
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by evildari »

Balthagor wrote:
Oct 16 2020
@evildari - you still focus on the difference between income and expenses instead of the difference between what the treasury change should have been from one day to the next. And yes, those are different numbers. It is simply the fact that storing the number 123,456,789,812,234 is a problem but storing 123,456,789,000,000 is not.
excuse me - maybe i did not write it right since english is not my native tongue :
as stated in my example post:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=28170
i look and calculated what the treasury should be at the next day (called this "real target balance" - i guess this would be the next best term to describe it)
provided the games number - unfortunately the games treasury next day does not match.

Also i dont know how in this decade there is an issue about storing large numbers - you know its 2020 not 1980
(well i can think of 2 reasons - but this could be viewed as offensive).
Never seen a similar issue in all other games i played (other bugs yes, but not a most basic addition error)
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
Rosalis
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by Rosalis »

Balthagor wrote:
Oct 16 2020
The economic system has not been significantly changed in years.
You want me to post screenshots of regions building or having build 1 research center in every city after arround 10 years of gameplay? Regions stop building anything else in peace time, well for 99,9999999% of the time of all the buildings available.

Also some improvements have been made to trade, which are ofcourse very important for economy, especially with the trade bug rescently posted.

You might have not changed anything in the economic system, but other things connected might give a whole other outcome.

Ofcourse i respect SRU has ended. Just giving some feedback going forward.
moherpower
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by moherpower »

My dear Balthagor thank you for your time you wasted while you replied to my bug report. Sorry for being blunt but i consider your team one of worst programers i have meet. And your customer service is terrible. But somehow you managed to make great game that i can't stop playing. I have over 1000 hours played in SR Ultimate and i do not intend to stop at this. Some time ago i had account on this forum and wanted to contribute to this game. But you had only one response to moust bugs i found "IN REAL LIFE ..... money desapear/ people do just like in bug you reported/ another BLA BLA BLA". To be honest i will forget passwort to this account too becouse it is pointless to write anything here in bug section.

And regarding to this statement

Balthagor wrote:
Oct 16 2020
@evildari - you still focus on the difference between income and expenses instead of the difference between what the treasury change should have been from one day to the next. And yes, those are different numbers. It is simply the fact that storing the number 123,456,789,812,234 is a problem but storing 123,456,789,000,000 is not.
there are many ways to achive this
1) change numbers to strings
2) put digits to array
3) many libraries for long digits they include math functions too
4) you can alvays cut the number in half and store it in 2 variables like long integers if you are lazy and want to use typical math functions.

Limits of C++ language are
unsigned long long 18,446,744,073,709,551,615
with this type you can have budget at 18,446,744,073,709M in game without any bullshit rounding

so if you dont know how to store that number i will show you

Code: Select all

unsigned long long treasury_positive = 123456789812234ULL;
unsigned long long treasury_negative = 0ULL;    // if treasury drops below 0 you can use this with "-" sign at begining
Where you see the problem??

I will use cheat codes to compensate my loses in economy no problem. As I said this is waste of time to continue so please close this topic.

Regards
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George Geczy
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Re: Errors in revenue

Post by George Geczy »

moherpower wrote:
Oct 17 2020
But somehow you managed to make great game that i can't stop playing. I have over 1000 hours played in SR Ultimate and i do not intend to stop at this.
I'm pleased to hear that our team of worst programmers was able to make a game that has kept you playing for over a thousand hours (when even most titles with multi million dollar budgets have less than a hundred hours of good gameplay).

While there are workarounds to the rounding issues as you point out, they all have performance and memory implications, as well as considerable issues with backward compatibility for save games, campaigns and mods. We understand that some people get annoyed when 1% of their treasury doesn't add up, but it's an insignificant value overall to the gamegplay. I know that our games have been compared to "a big spreadsheet" by some reviewers, but in reality we are not trying to simulate a spreadsheet.

For the in-development "Supreme Ruler Next Generation" we will be significantly updating the engine and are considering input from all our players and fans, and so this is a point that is on the list of items that have been brought forward, but again we also need to balance against performance and other technical considerations.

As you requested, we have closed this particular topic.

-- George / BattleGoat Studios
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