Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

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Schmidty
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Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#1 Post by Schmidty » Jun 01 2019

U.S should have more naval fabrications than the Soviets in the cold war for obvious reasons.

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Balthagor
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#2 Post by Balthagor » Jun 01 2019

Since it's not obvious, could we get some data sources to back up this claim?

We also do make some changes to history for either gameplay reasons or due to impacts on the game engine, but you're welcome to make your case.
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#3 Post by Schmidty » Jun 03 2019

Balthagor wrote:
Jun 01 2019
Since it's not obvious, could we get some data sources to back up this claim?

We also do make some changes to history for either gameplay reasons or due to impacts on the game engine, but you're welcome to make your case.
It is obvious, the U.S navy was always larger than the Soviet navy. I don't know how many more naval fabrications the U.S should have but they should have more naval fabrications then the Soviets.

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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#4 Post by Balthagor » Jun 03 2019

Schmidty wrote:
Jun 03 2019
...the U.S navy was always larger than the Soviet navy...
Got any data to back up this claim? Not saying you are wrong, but I would like hard data before we make changes to the game.
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#5 Post by Schmidty » Jun 03 2019

Balthagor wrote:
Jun 03 2019
Schmidty wrote:
Jun 03 2019
...the U.S navy was always larger than the Soviet navy...
Got any data to back up this claim? Not saying you are wrong, but I would like hard data before we make changes to the game.
All that matters is data from the start time period so here you go.
https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... evels.html
690 ships for the U.S. in 1949
I have looked everywhere on Google and Youtube I cannot find numbers on Soviet ships but stop acting like you don't know that the U.S. Navy from WW2 onwards always had the most ships and the most powerful navy in the world. Of course the U.S should have more naval fabrications then the Soviets in all starts ww2 onwards which includes cold war.

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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#6 Post by Balthagor » Jun 03 2019

Schmidty wrote:
Jun 03 2019
...stop acting like you don't know that the U.S. Navy from WW2 onwards always had the most ships and the most powerful navy in the world. Of course the U.S should have more naval fabrications then the Soviets in all starts ww2 onwards which includes cold war.
Total inventory and build capacity are two different things. Proof of one does not mean proof of the other. I don't need to "stop acting" about anything, I've never claimed to be a WWII military historian or expert. I have however done a certain amount of research. For inventory, I have a more precise source; http://www.navypedia.org/retro_view/1935/index_1935.htm

That's what we used to populate the orbats for all regions of the world. Based on their 1935 figures and some research about ships in construction, the game starts at 324 US naval units to 248 Soviet naval units. We used the data on that site to figure out the various places in the US where ships were built. What's more, I stopped to check and it turns out US capacity is already higher than US. In the '36 start, US is 8, Soviet is 5. So what's the problem? UK is at 5, so the US is even farther ahead than them.

And watch your tone, being rude won't help your case.
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#7 Post by Schmidty » Jun 04 2019

I am talking about cold war. Not other scenarios. The U.S production should be higher than the Soviet naval production. The other scenarios naval production is fine. Cold war is the problem. Basing cold war off of 1935 stats isn't a good idea. It should be based by scenario.

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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#8 Post by Balthagor » Jun 06 2019

Schmidty wrote:
Jun 04 2019
Basing cold war off of 1935 stats isn't a good idea. It should be based by scenario.
It wasn't based on the '36 data. Cold War was developed first. I pulled up the numbers;

Ships US vs. USSR vs. UK - 965/272/473
Shipyards US vs. USSR vs. UK 11/26/22

With the US having such a large inventory advantage, I don't see a problem with the USSR having more shipyards online. I'm open to looking at more data, but it has to be more than just gut feelings.
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#9 Post by Nerei » Jun 07 2019

The reason the US have that many ships compared to the USSR is the number of shipyards (and other industry to support these).
I would really not be surprised if 1949 US could outbuild the rest of the world combined in raw ship tonnage. It did with cars around this time from what I remember.

The US build more Fletcher destroyers during the war than the USSR fielded destroyers and I am fairly certain the Cleveland cruisers are the same story with regards to the USSR cruiser fleet. Both are just a part of the destroyer and cruiser fleet, the Sumners, Gearings, Baltimores and the like where also fairly numerous.
Then there is the 2700 Liberty ships, 700 Victory ships, 10 battleships, over 150 carriers of all types, hundreds upon hundreds of supports ships like LST, tenders and the like all of which where build up to or during the war. Basically when I compare the entire Red Fleet with what the US build during the war the US tends to come up way ahead.
Really the only type of ship where the USSR build anything comparable to the US in numbers are submarines from what I can find.

I suggest looking at the lists on this website.
http://shipbuildinghistory.com
If you look through the list of large shipyards you will find that there are a lot of yards and a lot of them where active around 1949

The site is actually quite good as it gives a list of hulls and when they where build as well as who ordered the ship and the location of the shipyards so you can decide if the shipyard is relevant or not as well as get an idea of where it should be on the map.
It only really details the US but then again this is about if 11 US shipyards is accurate or not.

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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#10 Post by Balthagor » Jun 07 2019

Thanks for the link.

Any suggestion on what values should be? I find myself more likely to reduce Soviet capacity than to increase the US capacity. the UK at 22 feels right (maybe a few points high) to me from my recollections of playing the map. Perhaps we should shift from 11/26 to 15/16?

Haven't looked at the link yet, but does it differentiate military shipbuilding from commercial?
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#11 Post by Nerei » Jun 07 2019

If possible it gives: The name of the vessel, what type it is, the original owner of the vessel, the tonnage of the vessel, the length of the vessel as well as the date it was laid down, launched and delivered.
Vessel history such as being transferred to Britain is also there regularly.

Not all points are covered for all vessels but name, original owner and type is pretty much always there.
I would say the main relevant lists are the large shipbuilders and The large naval ships and submarines tables. The former might give a better impression of the size of a shipyard while the latter can give you an impression of what shipyards built what type of ships for the US Navy.
The smaller shipyards while some have build ships for the US Navy is probably not worth including so the smaller shipyards list is probably something you can skip.

The US Navy shipyards and bases list is from what I can tell not going to give you a complete list as it does not include private companies. E.g. Newport News Shipbuilding is not on the list and it is one of the main US Navy shipbuilders of major vessels of the 20th century.


As for comparison of numbers I would still say the US should be higher than both the UK and USSR as again it easily outbuild both of them during the war. With regards to hard numbers that is hard for me to say without actually reading up on it as I tend to focus more on modern times than cold war.
There is also the argument for balance which is subjective and as someone that mainly plays Asian nations and not always pays attention to Europe and North America a bit harder for me to comment on (and again I mainly play 2017-2020).

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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#12 Post by Balthagor » Jun 07 2019

thanks for the input, I'll consider this.
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Re: Change naval fabrications in the cold war.

#13 Post by Schmidty » Jun 09 2019

Balthagor wrote:
Jun 07 2019
thanks for the input, I'll consider this.
Seconded Nerei comments.

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