a issue since supreme ruler 1936

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way2co0l
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#16 Post by way2co0l » Jan 13 2018

I continue to believe the simplest option would be to have buildings autorepair at a slow rate regardless of whether or not you choose to unpause repairs normally. Spending money and resources would simply speed it up. Let it take a year or 2 for the slower repairs to go if you choose not to speed it up. I'm comfortable with that. But to have absolutely nothing repaired even a decade after the damage was inflicted is far from realistic, regardless of their resource and financial situations.

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Balthagor
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#17 Post by Balthagor » Jan 13 2018

Back during SR196 development, when we tried everything repairing all the time, most countries went immediately broke because they didn't have enough money or enough industrial goods. And they couldn't produce any consumer goods or military goods because repairs took up all their industrial goods. The whole economy crashed.
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YoMomma
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#18 Post by YoMomma » Jan 14 2018

Here's an idea instead of breaking ALL long term scenarios like this. Why would modern scenarios suffer for 1936???

Lower the cost of industrial goods for repair in 1936 scenario.

Dont break whole game if you can fix it in the scenario. Improve IG production or lower the cost in 1936. Not some half measure solution where the whole community think it's broken.
Im just glad i run my own unit file.

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Balthagor
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#19 Post by Balthagor » Jan 14 2018

Then there needs to be logic for when auto repair is always on vs. always off and there should be an incremental growth of needed IGs. You're playing with some fundamental balance stuff.

You're suggesting these as if they are novel ideas we've never considered. We have. Right or wrong, we judged that the current implementation was the best we could achieve with the resources we had. We are still reviewing this issue and might even back track on some of our previous decisions, but to pretend there is an easy solution for this is a failure to grasp how complex this system has gotten after a decade of development.
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Zuikaku
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#20 Post by Zuikaku » Jan 14 2018

Balthagor wrote:Then there needs to be logic for when auto repair is always on vs. always off and there should be an incremental growth of needed IGs. You're playing with some fundamental balance stuff.

You're suggesting these as if they are novel ideas we've never considered. We have. Right or wrong, we judged that the current implementation was the best we could achieve with the resources we had. We are still reviewing this issue and might even back track on some of our previous decisions, but to pretend there is an easy solution for this is a failure to grasp how complex this system has gotten after a decade of development.
I disagree. Option of AI NEVER repairing battledamage to facilities only hurts AI and gameplay in long term games. Isn't it a better option for AI to turn repairs on when it has abundance of money and IGs?
And I've regularly seen AI having millions tons of IGs and more and enough money doing nothing - with half of the region suffering from damaged buildings.
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

way2co0l
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#21 Post by way2co0l » Jan 14 2018

Balthagor wrote:Back during SR196 development, when we tried everything repairing all the time, most countries went immediately broke because they didn't have enough money or enough industrial goods. And they couldn't produce any consumer goods or military goods because repairs took up all their industrial goods. The whole economy crashed.
Yes, but my suggestion is that the slower natural and constant repair would be free. It would simply take longer, but no money or resources would otherwise be spent. It would have zero negative effect on the world economy. If you want to repair it more quickly, then you must expend the money and resources in order to do so.

I get that it's not ideal, but I feel as if this has been a long term consistent issue that many people have and that the current fixes just don't seem to be adequate considering so many of us don't notice it working even under the ideal conditions in which it should. Making this change so that buildings repair on their own at a slow pace without cost won't really hurt the game in any significant way, but it will make a lot of us happy and potentially help the AI do what it otherwise can't at this point. So yeah, I just feel it's the best option all around.

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Balthagor
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#22 Post by Balthagor » Jan 14 2018

Your suggestion has been added to our notes on this issue. It was YoMomma's suggestion that I disagreed with. I don't have an opinion on your suggestion at this time.
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#23 Post by YoMomma » Jan 15 2018

I think that suggestion is lowering repair cost, or no repair cost. Suggestion of way2cool even need more work since he want the ai to understand it should repair faster if it has the money and industry goods, which is the main problem for 4 years, but yeah go ahead discuss for another 4 years.
Im just glad i run my own unit file.

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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#24 Post by Nerei » Jan 15 2018

Maybe make resource usage for repairs lower priority than say production (e.g. something like production > construction > repair > trade). That way the AI might queue way too much for repairs but it should have less of an impact on it.
All it should really mean is that it might not be able to sell anything which in most cases would make sense.

As for checks maybe make it check if it has more than a given value of resources and if the flow is positive. If that is the case it sets X number of buildings to be repaired.
This could be something like if it has the resources to repair 1 building completely it queues 2 or 3 for repair as we can probably assume in general that they are not all completely. Maybe even make it exposed values so people can play around with them.
Next day it does the check again. Combined with the first it should make it harder to for the AI to completely destroy its own economy while at least over time repairing damage.

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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#25 Post by YoMomma » Jan 15 2018

That might work Nerei. I guess it's easier to repair 1 building at a time then a region who conquered China and need to repair 500 facilities. As long they get repaird imho. I can see that region reparing agriculture buildings for 50 years, but yeah as long the job gets done.
Im just glad i run my own unit file.

evildari
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#26 Post by evildari » Jan 15 2018

... or scrap half of the damaged buildings for material (especially those near the front) and repair the other half (in secure? homeland )with it...
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 87&t=26151 (MARSX1)

way2co0l
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#27 Post by way2co0l » Jan 15 2018

evildari wrote:... or scrap half of the damaged buildings for material (especially those near the front) and repair the other half (in secure? homeland )with it...
The problem with this is that the ai is slow to build new buildings in the first place and that would be even more of an issue if they're scrapping damaged buildings as well.
YoMomma wrote:I think that suggestion is lowering repair cost, or no repair cost. Suggestion of way2cool even need more work since he want the ai to understand it should repair faster if it has the money and industry goods, which is the main problem for 4 years, but yeah go ahead discuss for another 4 years.
To be fair, the AI technically is already programmed to do that, so I'm not asking for it to be taught how to do that. My version of it would pretty much allow them to repair themselves over time, perhaps 1% per month. If they happen to meet the conditions to speed up repair, then all the better, but I don't think we should expect it at this point. The choice to speed repairs would be more of a human decision based on whether they want them repaired now, or if they're willing to wait a few years for the facilities to repair on their own. Seeing as how the AI doesn't effectively repair on their own at this point, even after many decades of game time, it's already primarily a human only feature, so my idea would really just be a way to help the AI more than anything else.

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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#28 Post by Nerei » Jan 15 2018

YoMomma wrote:That might work Nerei. I guess it's easier to repair 1 building at a time then a region who conquered China and need to repair 500 facilities. As long they get repaird imho. I can see that region reparing agriculture buildings for 50 years, but yeah as long the job gets done.
It does not have to only be one building being repaired at a time.

What I am saying is that instead of trying to invent the master script that can determine how many buildings should be repaired, how long it will take, what buildings to repair first, estimate the resource cost of it, keep track of all buildings being repaired and on top of it how long until the cup of green tea next to me is perfect just make a simple script with limited effect and run it regularly.
Yes it might not be as good but it might be feasible. Clearly the other is not or we would have it.

Determining if the AI in the current situation can repair 5 buildings is far, far simpler and on top of it making a mistake a few times means far less. Repairing 10 buildings more or less than ideal is probably not game changing, having the AI think it can repair all 500 damaged buildings when it can only handle 40 might be.

Naturally repairing 5 buildings might not be enough but then just run the script multiple times at regular intervals. E.g. check if buildings are damaged and if they are run it every day until that check fails. If it fails return to checking every month.

It could be something as simple as:
Check if the AI has 1M tonnes of industrial goods and divide resource stockpile with resource change to see if current stockpile with current change will last say 90 days. If yes repair 5 buildings, if not continue check.
Check if the AI has 1K tonnes of industrial goods and resource flow is positive. If yes repair 5 buildings.
If checks fails (possibly do 3 checks to ensure it is not a fluke) revert to checking once a month.
If repairs was started it will do the check again tomorrow.

It will not keep track of how many buildings it is repairing nor will it have any idea how much it costs but does that matter?
If it has free capacity it should repair which is really what matters.

Yes it will also mean it might take it a few months to go through 500 damaged buildings assuming the AI has the resources to fix that many buildings but that is an extreme case.


Finding the right values might naturally be a matter of testing but I am sure if you left them for the community to play with you might get suggestions.

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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#29 Post by YoMomma » Jan 15 2018

Basicly auto repair in SR2020 but then for 5 buildings, sounds good to me. Simple and effective.

Also fine with way2cool suggestion.

Just pushing the idea a bit further to get it straight. I dont know about AI scrapping facilities tho.. As far as i see AI doesnt know difference in 50% supply or 100% supply when building facilities. Or loyal area or non loyal. That sounds some more work. Would be cool but yeah.
Im just glad i run my own unit file.

Nerei
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Re: a issue since supreme ruler 1936

#30 Post by Nerei » Jan 15 2018

5 is only an example it could be 1 or it could be 10.
It is just the rate at which it increases the number of buildings it repairs. It might end up repairing 50 assuming the economy allows it.

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