Minefields

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SGTscuba
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Minefields

#1 Post by SGTscuba » Jun 19 2017

Would it be possible to implement minefields as they were extensively used at sea during this period? I know we had discussions in previous games but I think for the naval theatre it makes sense to do this time around.

I was thinking of having a ship place mines in an area (using internal ammo or supply or something) and over a week would plant the minefield to full strength. A minesweeping vessel could undo this over time too. Any ships that passed through the area would have a chance of taking damage depending on how complete the minefield is. This may or may not destroy the ship depending on the type of ship that is hit.

More ships would allow quicker laying or sweeping just like engineering units. Do with construction times.

Only designated ships could do laying or sweeping.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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way2co0l
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Re: Minefields

#2 Post by way2co0l » Jun 19 2017

Obviously I love the idea... I'm just really really doubtful it'll be possible. Naval operations are a major issue in general, and I'm doubtful we'll get what we really want from that aspect in the first place. So trying to think of how this could be implemented in a successful way where the AI can use it in any effective way just doesn't seem likely.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to crap on your idea. lol. Not trying to be all negative. I really do wish it was possible, because you're right, it was an important tactic at the time and several ships were lost to mines along the UK coast and the Dardanelles operations and several other examples. I'm just highly doubtful we'll get this and can't think of an easy way to implement it in order to convince them it's worth trying.

In order to actually aim for that though without simply being a negative naysayer.. How can the AI be programmed to place these mines? How will they know where to place them? How will they be able to identify where these mines might be and that they should direct their mine sweeping efforts while restricting normal naval units from that area until that's done? I think we need solid answers to these questions if we're going to have even a slim chance.

SGTscuba
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Re: Minefields

#3 Post by SGTscuba » Jun 19 2017

I figured the AI would be an issue. I don't take it badly as I expected it to be mentioned but I have no ideas on how to get the AI to do it. Maybe they could just cover areas around ports perhaps as a starting point and then we could work from there? They'd obviously need to be able to figure out minelayers and to sweep around ports perhaps as default behaviour if they have minesweepers.
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way2co0l
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Re: Minefields

#4 Post by way2co0l » Jun 19 2017

Yeah. The problem is that naval ai really isn't that good in general. And I don't mean to knock the devs at all. I understand it's more complicated with water hexes, because there are fewer ai logic triggers to use to determine ai behavior. There's no terrain, no resources (outside of a sporadic oil hexes), no strategic points, no cities or fortifications. It's harder to determine why one water hex should be more important than another. And right now, navies basically just fan out without any real cohesion or purpose. Just a large umbrella.

So if you mine outside their ports, they won't know any better. They'll just continue following their logic to try to fill that space with available units. Even if you put a check to remove those hexes from consideration except for only minesweepers, there's no way to tell them the water hexes beyond that point are inaccessible. If you mine the Kattaget sea region to restrict sea travel between the baltic and north seas, the ai might mark those specific hexes as off limits, but they'll still try to move through them to access the other sea regions and won't know that they shouldn't. I can't think of a way to really restrict it as a chain or anything. So they'll go sailing right through them anyway, putting their ships in danger without taking proper precautions first.

But on the other side, that would be a great place for them to mine for the same reasons, to restrict their enemies from using that waterway. But why would they ever choose to mine it over some other area? They're just water hexes. There's not really anything to distinguish them as important. Which makes it difficult for the ai to understand the potential significance for operations.

SGTscuba
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Re: Minefields

#5 Post by SGTscuba » Jun 19 2017

I was kind of hoping the Dec's could figure a way out to have a simple mind paying minesweeping system as only a few types of units would normally be able to lay and or sweep mines. I don't mind if they don't implement it but was just trying to start a conversation about the subject.
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way2co0l
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Re: Minefields

#6 Post by way2co0l » Jun 19 2017

Oh I know. And again, sorry if it feels like I'm detracting from that because it's honestly not my intent. This is my way of trying to contribute to that honestly. Even if it may not look that way. :/

SGTscuba
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Re: Minefields

#7 Post by SGTscuba » Jun 19 2017

way2co0l wrote:Oh I know. And again, sorry if it feels like I'm detracting from that because it's honestly not my intent. This is my way of trying to contribute to that honestly. Even if it may not look that way. :/
I'm not taking any of it as I negative, quite the opposite actually as its good someone is also coming up with problems so that the goats have something to think about.
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medic911
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Re: Minefields

#8 Post by medic911 » Jul 29 2017

Mine laying can be restricted to mining vessels (dual role as layer and sweeper) and to frigates, if we add that as a class.

Adding a visible and invisible "terrain and features" layer to the ocean ai can help improve movement and allow for better minelaying ai.
1. Coastal waters (max 2 hexes deep) are the primary location for mines. Extra desireable to defensively mine cost water near harbors and pier.
2. Ocean resources (oil) can be mines to prevent construction
3. Sea lanes. Connect certain coastal areas (such as "new England seaboard") to a global web of "sea lanes" which cross the atlantic, lead to Panama canal, around the capes etc. Like invisible roads on the ocean. The ai will travel within x hexes of the line, making defacto convoys.
If you want, you could even include a tool like the "build road" command which would allow players to make a custom sea lane or "on/off ramp" from their country to the existing lanes... The ai needs to be able to see the global web, but should have to discover a custom one.
As far as the "on/off ramp" . . . what I envision is that the global web is used by everyone in the open ocean, but they exit the web when they can make a straight line to their destination or get within x hexes of it. The on ramps are specific to which coastal,region you are starting from.

While allowing the ai to mine sea lanes and on ramps would be awesome, it's problematic since the mines would have the same chance of damaging neutral countries as the enemy. For that reason, I suggest that you either done let the ai do that or you make it an option that we can check on off in military settings or somehing.

SGTscuba
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Re: Minefields

#9 Post by SGTscuba » Sep 24 2018

To make this easier to implement and to get AI to build ships, how difficult would it be to add another class to the ship lists (in addition to cap ships and escorts for example).

Out of interest, has anyone seen the minefield implementation in the new HOI DLC? I think someone there has been reading this thread :D
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