Naval Fleet AI

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SGTscuba
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Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

I've been playing Supreme Ruler Ultimate and have noticed the AI is still sadly lacking in the naval department.

I think the AI should be able to move around as small squadrons rather than just individual ships. Some ships should still go around individually for raiding, convoy escort etc. This was at least how multiple fleets were set up.

I also think that if the AI sees a significant naval threat, it should somehow group together several squadrons to form a battlefleet which sails out to search and engage the threat that was spotted. Once the engagement has finished, then they would disperse again. This could provide us with situations such as Jutland and would make more sense than having the entire battlefleet sailing around all the time as singular ships.

I also think the AI needs to begin to learn how to conduct carrier strikes, something which actually happened towards the end of the war and not just accidently load them if the plane gets near them. Obviously the carrier would also need to be escorted.

Anyone else got any thoughts on this?
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GIJoe597
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by GIJoe597 »

I have thoughts, but they have all been typed before, at least 9 years ago. Nothing has changed with naval in that time. I have accepted it. For the record, you are correct and that would be great if that happened. However, when I want a naval battle, I play HOI III.
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SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

GIJoe597 wrote:I have thoughts, but they have all been typed before, at least 9 years ago. Nothing has changed with naval in that time. I have accepted it. For the record, you are correct and that would be great if that happened. However, when I want a naval battle I play HOI III.
Indeed, it was something HOI3 did much better.
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Nerei
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by Nerei »

Personally my recommendation for naval battles would be Rule the Waves. Sure it looks like windows 95 but if you want Jutland style dreadnought battles it is pretty much the best game there is. It is extremely complex though and not exactly user friendly.

As for AI improvements I can only say that all suggestions are good but considering the complexities of making such AIs work properly is I do not expect much. The HOI 3 naval AI also does some phenomenally stupid things at times.
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by GIJoe597 »

What I am suggesting is, know the devs/engines limits. If they could have made naval ai use fleets they would have by now. Look to other areas where they may have the expertise to improve upon the system. This is what I have done, may not work for everyone.

As far as naval combat and old games, I will stand by the Great Naval Battles series, but that is a different game "type" than SR series.
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way2co0l
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by way2co0l »

My best idea would be to discard the idea of genuine fleets. I don't see that happening anytime soon. But what about the idea using capital ships operating on their own, but force attaching smaller escort ships to them? That would fundamentally work for all eras better than it currently does IMHO. The CAP/Carrier won't leave port unless it can pull enough escorts (at least 3) with it and they simply have a follow order to protect it. As with my other suggestions in other threads, you can even add a modifier to certain naval techs that influence this. Battleships stopped being a mainstay after WW2, so you can simply add a modifier to what the engine qualifies as capital ships and escorts, as well as the numbers of escorts a capital ship requires to operate at sea.

Carrier issues are something I'd obviously still like to be worked on, but I understand it's beyond the scope of this game so I don't have any real hope for it anytime soon. But having this sort of function to at least create smaller task forces would be a major improvement IMO. Fleets may not ever be a real possibility, but I think this might be.
SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

It would also be nice if they could get the AI to escort MM fleets too. Especially as they'd be a lot of enemy ships moving around potentially. It wouldn't even have to be a close escort necessarily but could be a battlegroup patrolling along the convoy route as distant cover with some smaller ships providing close cover.
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way2co0l
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by way2co0l »

SGTscuba wrote:It would also be nice if they could get the AI to escort MM fleets too. Especially as they'd be a lot of enemy ships moving around potentially. It wouldn't even have to be a close escort necessarily but could be a battlegroup patrolling along the convoy route as distant cover with some smaller ships providing close cover.
I'd tend to agree except for one potential problem. Merchant marine have no real limit to how far they can travel where your military vessels do. I can foresee the AI being involved in a distant action, either a formal war or by proxy, and sending MM to a theater which their naval escorts would try to follow only to all get stranded at sea along the way. It's definitely something I'd enjoy having happen, don't get me wrong. I'm just worried about how much more effort will have to go into fixing all the AI things knowing that limited resources will simply ax anything that requires more than they can devout to it. Maybe if we can think up an easy way to do it while still avoiding those issues?
SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

Perhaps do a check on distant from nearest friendly port compared with fuel range? Up to a max of let's say 3000km so it doesn't kill the processor. Maybe have it recheck for the battlegroup every month with a random offset of up to 5 days so it doesn't use to much processor all at once.
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way2co0l
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by way2co0l »

I think Balt said that anytime we're trying to do hex scans like that puts a serious strain on the engine and processor, so introducing it to a large number of units isn't something that I think would work. The best option would be to allow those units to follow the MM path until they've reached 60% of their fuel, in which point they try to return to refuel. I know the average is 50%, but sometimes a ship trying to turn or getting involved in combat or whatever makes that not work. Personally, I'd tag it at 60% but also add the effect that all ships can continue to move at a snails pace even without fuel. Simply to minimize the number of stranded ships in the middle of the oceans. lol. But yeah, otherwise, let them follow the MM path until that point, and once they reach that point, if there happens to be a refueling point going forward which is closer than going back home, then they should use it. Closest refueling point possible should be the concern, in which point they return to trying to follow to the MM end point covering as much of that travel path as possible.
SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

way2co0l wrote:I think Balt said that anytime we're trying to do hex scans like that puts a serious strain on the engine and processor, so introducing it to a large number of units isn't something that I think would work. The best option would be to allow those units to follow the MM path until they've reached 60% of their fuel, in which point they try to return to refuel. I know the average is 50%, but sometimes a ship trying to turn or getting involved in combat or whatever makes that not work. Personally, I'd tag it at 60% but also add the effect that all ships can continue to move at a snails pace even without fuel. Simply to minimize the number of stranded ships in the middle of the oceans. lol. But yeah, otherwise, let them follow the MM path until that point, and once they reach that point, if there happens to be a refueling point going forward which is closer than going back home, then they should use it. Closest refueling point possible should be the concern, in which point they return to trying to follow to the MM end point covering as much of that travel path as possible.
That's also a good idea of how to do it. I suggested once a month for the check for the battlegroup assigned (not each ship in it) as a potential way to mitigate the scanning cost. (same with missiles only being fired automatically up to 250km)
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way2co0l
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by way2co0l »

SGTscuba wrote:That's also a good idea of how to do it. I suggested once a month for the check for the battlegroup assigned (not each ship in it) as a potential way to mitigate the scanning cost. (same with missiles only being fired automatically up to 250km)
Does the AI make battlegroups though? That's the only problem I can see with that. It could work for the human player but the Ai doesn't make them themselves (I don't think) which diminishes the feature. I'd definitely like to see battlegroups used more meaningfully and I'm hoping we can get them to implement them as unit structures for divisions or something. I imagine it'd be difficult as the engine wasn't built to consider that so it'd have to be a massively retooled feature, but maybe someday. :)
SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

way2co0l wrote:
SGTscuba wrote:That's also a good idea of how to do it. I suggested once a month for the check for the battlegroup assigned (not each ship in it) as a potential way to mitigate the scanning cost. (same with missiles only being fired automatically up to 250km)
Does the AI make battlegroups though? That's the only problem I can see with that. It could work for the human player but the Ai doesn't make them themselves (I don't think) which diminishes the feature. I'd definitely like to see battlegroups used more meaningfully and I'm hoping we can get them to implement them as unit structures for divisions or something. I imagine it'd be difficult as the engine wasn't built to consider that so it'd have to be a massively retooled feature, but maybe someday. :)
The battlegroup wouldn't be the existing battlegroups, it would just be the units assigned to the task. I should have really called it something different.
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SGTscuba
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by SGTscuba »

I'm giving this a bump as the AI still feels a let down. I've been playing the '49 scenario and Portugal went to war with South Africa. I gave Portugal over 400 ships but they didn't deploy a single one to South Africa to protect the massive convoys it was sending in that direction, causing them massive losses in shipping and units.

The ships were fully repaired and still they didn't deploy properly.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Naval Fleet AI

Post by Zuikaku »

Naval AI is still a major problem.
I hoped that some of the problems it is plagued with woul'd be solves during SRGW development.
Please teach AI everything!
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