Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

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dax1
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Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#1 Post by dax1 » Jul 08 2017

While playing a game with SR:U, I found out that many obsolete units (50 Mark I Boy Scout) were in reserve.
So I started to scraps them one at a time and queuing to build newer units (B-1 Centauro).
At this point I thought it would be nice to have a button that would allow me to automatically update obsolete units with new ones(only units in reserve).

Has anyone ever found in this situation?
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Kristijonas
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#2 Post by Kristijonas » Jul 09 2017

While it's a good idea, it will probably not be implemented because that is not what happens in real life.
For example in real life it is not possible to upgrade an OF-40 tank into Ariete tank.
Of course sometimes upgrades happen, for example Russian T70 could be upgraded to T80. But I think it would be very hard to program these exceptions.
Also, most countries in the world still use very old military equipment. There are still techs that add global military effectiveness bonuses so you can take them as upgrade to all of your units.

way2co0l
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#3 Post by way2co0l » Jul 09 2017

Well, to be fair, if you look at them like military organization units rather than just as equipment then upgrading makes sense. Your army infantry regiment wouldn't be dissolved in real life simply to create a new one with the modern equipment. You'd simply phase out the old equipment replacing it with new ones. Same with armored divisions or anything else really. "Upgrades" wouldn't really be any cheaper as you'd still have to pay for all new equipment, but would provide a more convenient way of keeping a modern force that doesn't require you to disband or sell your old equipment. Allowing an option to upgrade units simplifies the process by having 1 action to upgrade the old unit to the new one, rather than building the new unit in addition to discarding the old one. The UI can be a bit clunky with some of those unit management functions so that could be a nice improvement while also allowing you to keep historically named units that consistently get newer equipment.

Having said that, I still don't see it happening in any near future. I can see it being a nice extra though.

dax1
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#4 Post by dax1 » Jul 09 2017

Kristijonas wrote:While it's a good idea, it will probably not be implemented because that is not what happens in real life.
For example in real life it is not possible to upgrade an OF-40 tank into Ariete tank.
Of course sometimes upgrades happen, for example Russian T70 could be upgraded to T80. But I think it would be very hard to program these exceptions.
Also, most countries in the world still use very old military equipment. There are still techs that add global military effectiveness bonuses so you can take them as upgrade to all of your units.
No, I don't want that kind of upgrade, but something for automate "scrap obsolete unit and put in queue for production new unit" using "land production facility", not a "direct" upgrade.
what you say, I know, it can be made with new techs, but it's not what I mean!
what I mean is...I can scrap all my OF-40 ( for example 25) and put in production 25 new Ariete.
way2co0l wrote:Well, to be fair, if you look at them like military organization units rather than just as equipment then upgrading makes sense. Your army infantry regiment wouldn't be dissolved in real life simply to create a new one with the modern equipment. You'd simply phase out the old equipment replacing it with new ones. Same with armored divisions or anything else really. "Upgrades" wouldn't really be any cheaper as you'd still have to pay for all new equipment, but would provide a more convenient way of keeping a modern force that doesn't require you to disband or sell your old equipment. Allowing an option to upgrade units simplifies the process by having 1 action to upgrade the old unit to the new one, rather than building the new unit in addition to discarding the old one. The UI can be a bit clunky with some of those unit management functions so that could be a nice improvement while also allowing you to keep historically named units that consistently get newer equipment.

Having said that, I still don't see it happening in any near future. I can see it being a nice extra though.
yes... :wink:
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Balthagor
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#5 Post by Balthagor » Jul 10 2017

dax1 wrote:...automate "scrap obsolete unit and put in queue for production new unit...
There is a defense minister priority to do this. I believe it's "Military Growth"? Will make the AI scrap old units and queue up more modern units. But does required AI initiative to be on.
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way2co0l
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#6 Post by way2co0l » Jul 10 2017

Yeah, the only problem is that a lot of us don't like using AI initiative. Not that it's necessarily bad at what it does, I honestly don't know because I never use it. I enjoy having control over every tiny detail and don't like changes being made that I'm not directly aware of or might even be in direct conflict with what I was trying to do otherwise.

Having the option to do it manually but for the process to be simpler would be a welcome option at some point. I really don't expect it, but quality of life upgrades are always a good thing.

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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#7 Post by dax1 » Jul 11 2017

way2co0l wrote:Yeah, the only problem is that a lot of us don't like using AI initiative. Not that it's necessarily bad at what it does, I honestly don't know because I never use it. I enjoy having control over every tiny detail and don't like changes being made that I'm not directly aware of or might even be in direct conflict with what I was trying to do otherwise.

Having the option to do it manually but for the process to be simpler would be a welcome option at some point. I really don't expect it, but quality of life upgrades are always a good thing.
Again I think way2cool is right.
all AI initiative is off in my game and I think all "expert" player have it off.
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#8 Post by Wonderdoodle » Jul 11 2017

Not sure what we're calling expert players here.. but I got going on 700+ hours in SRU and just as many in the other games since SR2020. No offense taken though, just saying I play with AI init on, and this feature doesn't work so it's a mute point to argue. Or if it does.. it's not working correctly. I also enjoy cheating like a mofo and I'm at 1940 with metal storm tech.. but for some unknown reason I still have biplanes flying around and my dude is still auto building them. Take it for what you will.. figured I'd butt in my 2 pennies to let you know it doesn't matter if you use AI init or not.. feature not actively working like the OP is asking for.

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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#9 Post by dax1 » Jul 12 2017

Wonderdoodle wrote:Not sure what we're calling expert players here.. but I got going on 700+ hours in SRU and just as many in the other games since SR2020. No offense taken though, just saying I play with AI init on, and this feature doesn't work so it's a mute point to argue. Or if it does.. it's not working correctly. I also enjoy cheating like a mofo and I'm at 1940 with metal storm tech.. but for some unknown reason I still have biplanes flying around and my dude is still auto building them. Take it for what you will.. figured I'd butt in my 2 pennies to let you know it doesn't matter if you use AI init or not.. feature not actively working like the OP is asking for.
[_]O
:D Ok, I'm wrong.
But happy to know that it does not work, so maybe, Balth can do a thought to introduce that. :lol:
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Wonderdoodle
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#10 Post by Wonderdoodle » Jul 12 2017

I look at it like this.. we need a manual "push" button for upgrades. We have a computer that you have a built in button on the software, but no physical button to push. Could be that I'm cheating and maybe it's creating some error, but I'm just sayin.. makes no sense to build a computer with no power button that you can smash just in case things get stuck.

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Re: Player Option on replacing Obsolete Units

#11 Post by geminif4ucorsair » Jul 16 2017

Balthagor wrote:
dax1 wrote:...automate "scrap obsolete unit and put in queue for production new unit...
There is a defense minister priority to do this. I believe it's "Military Growth"? Will make the AI scrap old units and queue up more modern units. But does required AI initiative to be on.
It is a good Option for those less experienced and less knowledgable in military Unit types, etc. - therefore, thanks for those newbie's who could use its Option.

Personally, I have several thousand hours playing SR-36 (plus SR-49/-2020) and do not use it.

But, like several of us who have "been around the block" over the years with SR, it is always important to have short-cuts for those who have less experience, whether it be in trade, diplomacy, military Units, etc.

Kristijonas
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#12 Post by Kristijonas » Jul 16 2017

There is this minister order "Arms Race"

Its description is literally "Replace older units with more modern versions. Modernize military units." So I think what was asked is already in the game.

Pretty sure "Military Growth" does NOT scrap old units. "Military Growth" order is all about getting more units, not scraping and remaking old ones.

Wonderdoodle
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#13 Post by Wonderdoodle » Jan 19 2019

Am I the only one that's actually trying these suggestions? I see a lot of, "I think" or "it's supposed to be there somewhere" kind of suggestions, but have any of you tried them and seen it working? Because I've tried these and they do not work. There is no scrapping of my old units happening in my games.

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Balthagor
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#14 Post by Balthagor » Jan 19 2019

Wonderdoodle wrote:
Jan 19 2019
There is no scrapping of my old units happening in my games.
What settings are you using? Do you have minister priorities and unit initiative set?
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mrgenie
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Re: Sugg: upgrade obsolete units

#15 Post by mrgenie » Mar 29 2019

Supreme Ruler has the view from space down to earth right...

So you as the supreme ruler are the one doing the broader grand strategy not the tactics..

the game engine itself though, due to the lack of country building, is more like tactical warfare and not so much strategy..

basically I think a game like civilization is more focused on long term planning, thus strategy..

tactics in civ ehm, non existing I'd say. Their AI is basically non-existing. There is no way the dumbest most stupid idiot
on this planet could loose from the AI in civ when it comes to combat tactics.

Supreme Ruler is all about tactics. So the choice of the name for this game is kinda weird, as the engine SR is the best
AI engine when it comes to tactical warfare. The closest tactical AI any other game in the world has is not even 1% compared
to Supreme Ruler tactical AI.

BUT.. it's tactics.. not strategy!

Scrapping units, etc. is strategy.. do I plan large numbers of cheap units but less powerful or less but more expensive specialized
units each on their own much stronger for their specific tasks..

This is not the main aim of Supreme Ruler..

So units obsolete or not, is really a human specific thing the AI never was designed for really as this game lacks long term strategy
planning and development of the country.

This is what I believe the weakness of SR, it's the ultimate tactical AI on the market, but used on a large strategic map..

I think the ultimate expansion for Supreme Ruler would be a complete new development ALONGSIDE the current tactical warfare engine
with strategic long term planning.

Thus I don't think this question of obsolete units actually belongs to the current game. After a few decades every game of mine economy
is screwed, country development halts, and costs of military explode versus income... even scrapping 100% of the units you run negative.

Because there is NO strategic planning in the game.

So the game isn't designed for long term gaming over decades.. thus no strategical decisions as it's a tactical engine.

Battlegoat should continue the tactical engine especially naval warfare, carrier group AI, bombing campaigns, bomber command AI, etc..
all kinds of WWII tactics not yet implemented in the game.

But at the same time we need a 2nd development for long term strategic planning and building up the country.

So we need 50+ resources to start with, not just the few we now have
industries building up, not just small, midi, large.. but I mean reall different industries like paper, steel, chips, etc..
building up from simple water and wind mills in 1500 to modern wind mills.

But that's a whole different development really.. that's strategy.. and the current tactical engine of SR would be SUPER to be integrated
into a strategic engine, or not integrated but alongside..

strategy planning for building up economy over centuries
building up infrastructure over centuries
but also addressing your units.. like during WWII when the president decides 30% of naval forces for atlantic and 70% for pacific
but land forces 80% for European teater and 20% for pacific

or like saying: troops for European theater 50.000 combat ready, 1000 main battle tanks combat ready (that's like 100 battalions or 3-5 divisions of which 2 light infantry, 2 heavy tanks and 1 medium armored)
150.000 troops in reserve back in US, but ready to be send over any time soon while storing 2500 main combat tanks in depots in Europe for the 150.000 additional troops in the USA so I only have
to send over the troops and not the equipment should I need it.

Such thoughts how to deploy troops isn't about tactics, you leave that up to the generals.. that's strategy..

I think SR is really focused on tactical warfare and doing GREAT!!!

But the strategic decisions are actually what a "supreme commander" would be involved in as tactics is for the generals in the field.

So to live up to the name, Battlegoat should start a 2nd development alongside of SR for the real strategy :)

And in such a strategy engine, you get the real question about using a lot of old units versus modern units OR a combination.. because quantity is a quality on it's own especially to
cover the flanks or large regions..

I don't see 50.000 modern army troops with their modern night vision, body protection and supported by 500 modern M1A2 SEP 3 occupying Germany after WWII
but 1.000.000 ill equipped simple rifles and 5.000 Sherman tanks will do the job pretty well... However, 200.000 ill equipped troops with 1000 Sherman tanks combined with a small modern force
to break any uprising will do that job even better because you have the quantity to show force, but you don't have enough for it for the whole country but modern
fast mobilized heavy weapons can easily deployed anywhere within 12 hours to crack any uprising with the most deadly force to keep the country occupied.

So that's strategy.. HOW these units going to crack down uprising and keep occupation is tactics and for that current engine is well done!

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