It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by Balthagor »

tkobo wrote:Why would i accept something so unproven ?I was born far longer ago then yesterday...
That's a back handed insult, implying that since I do accept the possibility that I'm naive ie. born yesterday. You know the forum rule, don't be rude. A simple "no" would have sufficed. I find it telling that you close your mind to possibilities presented by others while expecting others to take your findings as gospel.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by fool »

Tkobo (and in fact Chris, since I believe you've fallen for this one). The article cited a study claiming that there was an annual acceleration in ice loss of around 8 billion tons per year per year. It then proceeded to claim that because the margin of error in the ice loss per year is nearly as large as the acceleration, the acceleration may not be real at all.

This is wrong, which is obvious as soon as you understand that the rate of ice loss and the acceleration of rate of ice loss are different quantities. One is the rate of change of the amount of ice, while the other is the rate of change of the rate of change of the amount of ice. They are very different quantities, and treating them as the same is just plain silly, as is assuming that the error in one quantity directly translates to the same error in the other quantity.

Please keep the context in mind. These are scientists, writing in a well respected and peer reviewed journal, and yet you think some random journalist can look through it and find a really obvious flaw? If "it may not really be happening at all" (based on data used in the paper), they would have mentioned that in the paper. And you can bet that if they had, the journalist here would have simply pulled the quote from the paper and been done with it.

In short, the author of that article is a scientific illiterate or is being deliberately deceptive and you should get information on this topic from somebody who actually knows what they are talking about. Hell, maybe try reading some of the actual papers, if you have the time, money and inclination.

(edit: I made a mistake calculating the mass of ice in the greenland ice sheet, since that information wasn't readily available. They are indeed talking about acceleration of the rate of loss of ice.)
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

i dont expect anything to be taken as gospel,being im atheist and all....

I dont even expect people to use critical thinking,too much evidence to the contrary and all.

As for my thoughts on you pertaining to this topic ,your stance on this is already on record as supporting the " dont care if its true or not,as its ends justify" route (as well as the socialist angle which youve also voiced)...I can find your quote on that (ends means) if you like.And as thats one of the 3 explicit reasons i mention,while alluding to others,reason suggests i didnt call you gullible in that post.

Reason suggests,i was infact pointing out that many gullible people believe in agw,and that i am not one of them,having not been born recently ( a typical way of saying ones gullible,lacking in wisdom, or a fool)
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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fool wrote:Tkobo (and in fact Chris, since I believe you've fallen for this one). The article cited a study claiming that there was an annual acceleration in ice loss of around 8 billion tons per year per year. It then proceeded to claim that because the margin of error in the ice loss per year is nearly as large as the acceleration, the acceleration may not be real at all.

This is wrong, which is obvious as soon as you understand that the rate of ice loss and the acceleration of rate of ice loss are different quantities. One is the rate of change of the amount of ice, while the other is the rate of change of the rate of change of the amount of ice. They are very different quantities, and treating them as the same is just plain silly, as is assuming that the error in one quantity directly translates to the same error in the other quantity.

Please keep the context in mind. These are scientists, writing in a well respected and peer reviewed journal, and yet you think some random journalist can look through it and find a really obvious flaw? If "it may not really be happening at all" (based on data used in the paper), they would have mentioned that in the paper. And you can bet that if they had, the journalist here would have simply pulled the quote from the paper and been done with it.

In short, the author of that article is a scientific illiterate or is being deliberately deceptive and you should get information on this topic from somebody who actually knows what they are talking about. Hell, maybe try reading some of the actual papers, if you have the time, money and inclination.

(edit: I made a mistake calculating the mass of ice in the greenland ice sheet, since that information wasn't readily available. They are indeed talking about acceleration of the rate of loss of ice.)
I agree with this. Actually expected Tkobo would reply to it.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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tkobo wrote:...already on record as supporting the " dont care if its true or not,as its ends justify" route (as well as the socialist angle which youve also voiced)...
I haven't said "ends justify all means". I have said possible ends justify caution. To imply I take it further is like saying that as soon as I buy car insurance I feel liberated to crash into the next car I see. Think if it in these terms; the possible risk of death from fire justifies the requirement of a detector installed in all homes.

And yes, I'm a social democrat, saying so doesn't make me feel guilty or ashamed in any way.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

Same reason i dont reply to about 8 other posters here....Id elaborate,but youve recently said my doing so in another case was "rude"...so why bother...

As youve seen fit to quote and highlight the post in question, ill reply to you.

The author is a journalist.Hes making accurate statements on a study done by scientists from princeton.I have read (most of ) the study.And i have read multiple reviews of it.As i usually do.

To say this reporter is scientifically illiterate ,simply because hes a reporter is silly.To say so simply because one doesnt believe the article is also silly.In fact this recent study using grace,mirrors past studies from 2006 and 2009.And in sequence,each of those studies has arrived at a lower estimated melt rate then the previous study did.This most recent study was the direct follow up to the 2006 study.In order to refine the accuracy of the grace system's .

Grace by the way doesnt actually measure ice,its measures changes in mass it can detect from space in conjunction with gps and ground stations.and this latest attempt they say has improved its accuracy in doing that.Now whats more likely,that a system known to have large inaccuracies that was just made more accurate is now spot on...... or that its still more inaccurate then they understand.Not really a brain teaser there is it.....

(Wont even go into again, the last satellite system that even nasa had to admit couldnt see large parts of the very ice it was being used to measure......)

As for the journalists gist of the study.....
In fact one line from the abstract with the study reads
Although the total mass loss trend has remained linear, actively changing areas of mass loss were concentrated on the southeastern and northwestern coasts, with ice mass in the center of Greenland steadily increasing over the decade
so we have a projected net loss growth,thats smaller than the acknowledged error range,for a system that still has inaccuracies in it.And for a prophesied event thats had hugely variable scenarios pitched for its catastrophic occurrence ranging from circa 50 years to circa 13,000 years.One that some scientists like for instance Cliff Ollier(School of Earth and Geographical Sciences, The University of
Western Australia),say cant even happen to begin with....
In the present paper we shall try to show how the mechanism of glacier flow differs from this simple model, and why it is impossible
for the Greenland and Antarctic Ice Sheets to collapse.
The global warming doomsday writers claim the ice sheets are melting catastrophically, and will cause a sudden rise in sea level of many metres.
This ignores the mechanism of glacier flow which is by creep: glaciers are not melting from the surface down, nor are they sliding down an inclined
plane lubricated by meltwater. The existence of ice over 3 km thick preserving details of past snowfall and atmospheres, used to decipher past temperature
and CO2 levels, shows that the ice sheets have accumulated for hundreds of thousands of yearswithout melting. Variations in melting around the
edges of ice sheets are no indication that they arecollapsing. Indeed 'collapse' is impossible.

Ive seen systems for winning the lottery that were more solid.

--------
More on the leak...
The [IPCC] admission of strong evidence for enhanced solar forcing changes everything. The climate alarmists can’t continue to claim that warming was almost entirely due to human activity over a period when solar warming effects, now acknowledged to be important, were at a maximum. The final draft of AR5 WG1 is not scheduled to be released for another year but the public needs to know now how the main premises and conclusions of the IPCC story line have been undercut by the IPCC itself.
This from one of the very people the UN had do the “expert review” of the Second Order Draft of AR5 .Be interesting to see if the sections are removed before official release.Just as its interesting to see the ipcc slowly,reluctantly, mirror what other recent studies have claimed about "how its the sun" doing any driving.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

Balthagor wrote:
tkobo wrote:...already on record as supporting the " dont care if its true or not,as its ends justify" route (as well as the socialist angle which youve also voiced)...
I haven't said "ends justify all means".
Lets play, whats different here.......
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by Balthagor »

tkobo wrote:
Balthagor wrote:
tkobo wrote:...already on record as supporting the " dont care if its true or not,as its ends justify" route (as well as the socialist angle which youve also voiced)...
I haven't said "ends justify all means".
Lets play, whats different here.......
The fact that some people will have car accidents justifies legislation that enforces drivers to be insured.

Every action that a person takes is a weight of the ends and the means and seeing if the action is proportionate with the expected outcome. I'm not sure you can accurately claim that I believe it's the ends that justify the means in any of these cases, it's risk analysis. The risk vs. cost is what I says justifies the means. Yeah, if you want to pin me with ends justify the means I'll make you dig up my quotes.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

chuckle tm

Some people get struck by lighting,so we should all have to buy lightning insurance.....

Some people are killed by terrorists,so we should all have to buy terrorist insurance.....

And of course,everyone dies,so we should all have to buy life insurance .....

After all,how could anyone object to having other people tell them what they must buy ....I mean heck,surely the "well meaning" "superior" "elite" should have that control over the mere populace.....

-----
Ill get right on finding those quotes,oh look heres one :P
The fact that some people will have car accidents justifies legislation that enforces drivers to be insured.
Pascal would be so proud of you......Nothing like following the "thinking" of one who professed a none trust in reason....After all 2 + 2 cant be fully trusted to equal 4 ...
This is what I see, and what troubles me. I look on all sides, and everywhere I see nothing but obscurity. Nature offers me nothing that is not a matter of doubt and disquiet
After all, the benefits of believing in santa clearly outweigh the benefits of not,should he exist.....So be sure to believe in santa :P
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by Balthagor »

tkobo wrote:Ill get right on finding those quotes,oh look heres one :P
The fact that some people will have car accidents justifies legislation that enforces drivers to be insured.
Nice twist, but that's not ends justifying means.

Here the ends is drivers who have accidents will be in a position to shoulder responsibility for errors the made and be covered for their needs deriving from the errors of others. This doesn't justify the legislation. It's a common sense argument that makes it a good idea to choose legislation over voluntary compliance. What would justify the legislation would be studies (I'm imagining here) showing that poor drivers tend to be the ones who opt out of insurance and that the cost to society of caring for those without insurance is greater than would be the cost to the individual. Where I said "the fact that some people have car accidents" I should instead have said "The gathered statistics about car accidents in the nation". I will grant that my sentence could have been better worded but I think it's clear the though process I was looking to invoke.

You could use your twisted logic to attack every legislation on the books as having been an ends/means story.

The fact that in some cases citizens might have to defend themselves from their own government justifies a constitutional entry allowing them to bare arms is just the ends justifying the means I guess...
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

Balthagor wrote: The fact that some people will have car accidents justifies legislation that enforces drivers to be insured.
Balthagor wrote: Here the ends is drivers who have accidents will be in a position to shoulder responsibility for errors the made and be covered for their needs deriving from the errors of others. This doesn't justify the legislation.


Perhaps you should pick a horse.........
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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Balthagor wrote:Where I said "the fact that some people have car accidents" I should instead have said "The gathered statistics about car accidents in the nation". I will grant that my sentence could have been better worded but I think it's clear the though process I was looking to invoke.
I'll even clean up the sentence some more;

The gathered statistics about car accidents and the long term consequences financially for both citizens and the state where such drivers don't carry proper insurance justifies legislation that enforces drivers to be insured.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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EPA eco loon jackson to resign....And all it took was a court order,for the epa to release emails,it had already been ordered to release,but kept hidden.....

Yup,imagine that.A few years back, the epa was ordered to release its emails.After a fight,it released the emails ,only it didint.Many epa workers,had secret email accounts they used for work at the epa setup by the epa,under alias,which of course they kept secret and did NOT release.They have since been discovered,and the court has again ordered their release,and coincidence of coincidences,jackson runs for the exit .....
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

Post by tkobo »

ahhh,the money....

Activist mann,"admits" his agent charges up to $10k for mann's speaking appearances...I wonder how refunds work :lol:

He was forced to admit this,after he created a small fiasco claiming Media Trackers Florida ,was lying when they "falsely" pointed out that this was indeed the case.In simpler terms,media trackers pointed out how much mann charged (thru his agent) for speaking appearances,mann accused them of lying about the figure,obviously trying to hide the money flow,and then had to admit his attack on media trackers was in fact wrong.That he did indeed live high on the hog of the agw scam,by charging such (among other ways).

This is $10K PLUS traveling costs ,by the way.
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Re: It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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Gore sells his failing media company for circa $500mil in oil money,escaping further embarrassment as the company floundered.The buyer, Al Jazeera.And not a single word out of his pals in office about how an american media company was sold to a hostile foreign media company....Course gore's media company was hostile to america also :lol:


----------------------------

A group of 20 ex-NASA scientists calling themselves The Right Climate Stuff (TRCS) have concluded that the science used to support the man-made climate change hypothesis is not settled and no convincing physical evidence exists to support catastrophic climate change forecasts,after an in-depth review of a number of climate studies.

----------------------------

Hansen comes close to admitting the truth....
The 5-year running mean of global temperature has been flat for the past decade
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