It is Global Warming Comrade!!

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Lightbringer
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It is Global Warming Comrade!!

#1 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 09 2008

If any of you still think Global Warming is about saving the cuddly Polar bears...Read This

-Light

(oh yeah, This is how Democrats are helping out the "little people" dealing with sky rocketing fuel prices.)
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#2 Post by red » Jun 09 2008

His comment, "requiring an expansion of governmental control system to manage our economy" seemed a bit off so I searched his name, and it seems he's Bush's boy. I wouldn't listen to a politician's view on science. :-?

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#3 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 09 2008

Red wrote: I wouldn't listen to a politician's view on science.
hmmmm A politician....claiming to know all about some sort of global consensus of science... Nahhhh!! It'll Never happen! LOL

Actually the point was not the validity of the science, but the massive economic destructiveness for no apparent reason such a "cap and trade" law would entail. Even if Global Warming were worse than Algore rants and raves about, the United States could vanish from the Earth, and China, India, and the rest of the developing/developed world would still be spewing out CO2.

Personally, I give much more credit to Mother Earth for being in charge of her Ecosystem than Man. That being said, I have nothing against reducing pollution. I do, however, resist the underlying concept that the United States is supposed to destroy Herself to reduce pollution, while other countries expand their polluting industries exponentially.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#4 Post by red » Jun 09 2008

I'm not all that fond of Al Gore either. It just looks like that because in comparison to some people here, his name does not get me frothing at the mouth. :lol:

It's true that China and India are increasing their emissions, but I don't think it's fair for us to say, "no, poor people, stay down there, we can't do without our gas-guzzlers!" It's only fair that the United States pay a price for its extravagant living and its long history of emissions in comparison to countries that are just now starting. It's just unfortunate timing for them--they are being held to a much higher standard than we have held ourselves.

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#5 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 10 2008

Red wrote:It's only fair that the United States pay a price for its extravagant living and its long history of emissions in comparison to countries that are just now starting. It's just unfortunate timing for them--they are being held to a much higher standard than we have held ourselves.
Without the U.S. pouring billions of dollars into their economies through trade and investment (all that "extravagant living" don't ya know), they would not be "starting". They directly benefited from our emissions. And again, that is part of my point, they are NOT being held to standards that the U.S. and Europe are. Do a google search on China/coal plants, I believe they are building about 100 of them at present, and they already look like England during the industrial revolution as far as air pollution. Do not mistake me, I am not saying "shut down their emerging industry". I am saying, get your (GW alarmists, not you Red) stinking commie hands off of the United States' Industry/economy.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#6 Post by Miecznik » Jun 10 2008

Lightbringer -

Arguments you use are.. well.. not very wise in my opinion. "Without the U.S. pouring billions of dollars into their economies through trade and investment" Following your line i could say " If not Europe investments you would be still running in bison's furs and hunt for your "extravagant living" with a bow". And communists lobbying for enviromental unifying... gimme a break ; )

The truth is that united states is leading co2 and other **** emmiter. Per capita reaching 20 metric meters, while bicycle riding chineese use 3.8 per person. In addition lot (cant call back how much, i remember its about 20% )of their products goes for export - therefore lowering western's emmision and highering theirs.

Its not just about Gore and U.S, its not that someone tries to attack economy. Scientists (Most of institutes) agreed that most propably human has inpact on ecology and its better to take care of it. 180 Countries worldwide ratified Kioto pact - and - shocking! But they did not turn into communizm : |.


- Miecznik

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#7 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 10 2008

One of these days Miecznik, you will get tired of blindly following media propaganda like a sheeple.
Miecznik wrote:Lightbringer -

Arguments you use are.. well.. not very wise in my opinion. "Without the U.S. pouring billions of dollars into their economies through trade and investment" Following your line i could say " If not Europe investments you would be still running in bison's furs and hunt for your "extravagant living" with a bow". Exactly correct. Since it was Europe that started us out on our road to Evil and planetary destruction, y'all can pay for it. In fact, all the countries that are now increasing their carbon footprints because of American investment and development are Europe's fault as well. America did not demand that Europe destroy their own economy so ours could flourish. Do not presume to demand that we dismantle ours so Asia can. And communists lobbying for enviromental unifying... gimme a break ; ) For Environmental unity?... no... for United States Capitalism to be destroyed?...yes

The truth is that united states is leading co2 and other **** emmiter. Per capita reaching 20 metric meters, while bicycle riding chineese use 3.8 per person. In addition lot (cant call back how much, i remember its about 20% )of their products goes for export - therefore lowering western's emmision and highering theirs.So freakin what? The fact that they are increasing their footprint exponentially just doesn't sink in for you does it? By the time the U.S. could lower ours, theirs will have surpassed our present rate.

Its not just about Gore and U.S, its not that someone tries to attack economy. Scientists (Most of institutes) agreed that most propably human has inpact on ecology and its better to take care of it. 180 Countries worldwide ratified Kioto pact - and - shocking! But they did not turn into communizm : |.Actually, it is pretty hard to become something most of them already are Miecznik. The non socialist countries to sign that piece of used Kyoto toilet paper are underdeveloped and stand to benefit incredibly by powerful industrial nations crippling themselves. As in selling carbon credits to them, and then using that cash to build industry. Kyoto signatory nations carbon footprint has increased since it was signed. Nations that signed it, and are just now realizing how it effects their economy, are ignoring it. Ask the goats about Canada changing their obligations in this regard..setting them off for decades and lowering the target reductions.


- Miecznik
This crap is all too likely to be passed anyway. I'll drop the argument with you. Just think back twenty years from now when America is a giant slum and totally socialist (and Asia is polluting the Earth far worse than America ever did) about how naive and shortsighted your views were. I hope Nato can hold back Russia and the Muslims after the U.S. is too poor to help. This is the root problem with Socialism, it punishes success and rewards failure so that everyone can suffer the same mediocrity. No thanks.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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#8 Post by Miecznik » Jun 10 2008

Lightbringer -
As far as i can guess, you haven't ever lived in socialist country. I did, and i can know the diffrence. So every time i hear that United States will be socialist, i get a big smile on my face. Anyway - when talking about india and china dont forget that those two single nations consist of 1/3 of human population. It would be bad if lets say lativa or estonia would build 100 coal plants, china is just big nad ya cannot blame chineese for that.
Exactly correct. Since it was Europe that started us out on our road to Evil and planetary destruction, y'all can pay for it. In fact, all the countries that are now increasing their carbon footprints because of American investment and development are Europe's fault as well. America did not demand that Europe destroy their own economy so ours could flourish. Do not presume to demand that we dismantle ours so Asia can.following this line - Europe would not exist if not Romans (Blame the romans !!) Rome would not exist if not Greece (Its Greek fault !!) Greece would not exist if not the Egyptians. And so one till we get to the sea where all life was born. thats why i find this kind of logic false at first way. Following - Europe takes responibilyty for what it does and for what it does not do. United States prefers ignoring the fact that they'r peeing to everyones soup.

For Environmental unity?... no... for United States Capitalism to be destroyed?...yes The idea of enviromentalizm was developed nations idea and proposition, people demanded it and democratic goverments had to respect it. You cannot blame Commie states that they participate in it. Its not that other countries demand from U.S something that they do not do themselves

Actually, it is pretty hard to become something most of them already are Miecznik. The non socialist countries to sign that piece of used Kyoto toilet paper are underdeveloped and stand to benefit incredibly by powerful industrial nations crippling themselves. As in selling carbon credits to them, and then using that cash to build industry. Kyoto signatory nations carbon footprint has increased since it was signed. Nations that signed it, and are just now realizing how it effects their economy, are ignoring it. Ask the goats about Canada changing their obligations in this regard..setting them off for decades and lowering the target reductions. Only few nations did not sign or ratified kioto protocol. U.S stands next to kazahstan, Afghanistan, Irak and palestine in this matter. Most of developed nations are quite close to keepind the kioto protocol, and at least the will pay for the over emission they did. Chineese also began doing something with it while the smog above their cities began to be quite annoying
In the end - poluttion will rise, but it would be better to control it. I'm not the Eco maniac type, if the temperature will get higher wi will just wear lighter clothes. In XII century witch was a lot hotter then present, there used to grow wine on southern part of Poland. So i would not panic ; )



- Miecznik

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#9 Post by Balthagor » Jun 10 2008

Just so you don't feel completely alone Miecznik, I also trust the scientific evidence I've seen reported that the average temperature of the earth is being directly increased due to human beings and that this will have detrimental effects, possibly costing lives in some cases, and that populations in "have" countries carry a greater responsibility than the "have not" countries to work to resolve this.

I didn't dare just say "I believe in global warming" ;)
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#10 Post by tkobo » Jun 10 2008

@balthagor
I also trust the scientific evidence I've seen reported that the average temperature of the earth is being directly increased due to human beings and that this will have detrimental effects, possibly costing lives in some cases, and that populations in "have" countries carry a greater responsibility than the "have not" countries to work to resolve this.
AND yet, you choose NOT to believe the scientific evidence that counters such claims.
Soooo.... why is it you choose to believe one and not the other?
Could it simply be, that like many people,the evidence has little to do with it, and whether or not the source and stance coincides with what youve already chosen to believe is the only real key for you on this topic ?
That you are not looking for evidence or accuracy,but rather that your only looking for confirmation on what youve already chosen to believe ?

Some other people world wide believe in santa claus,the easter bunny,religions,Al Gore,the wisdom of the defection system in sr2010, and other myths :P

Some day, its likely some of them will stop believing in some of them :lol:
Will you ?


@Miecznik - My guess is,lights never been run over by a tank either.BUT i dont doubt hes got the right idea about the results :P
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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#11 Post by Miecznik » Jun 10 2008

@ tkobo

Ya'r playing with fire mate. Dont forget Balthagor is admin of this forum. ; )

Bout enviroment - i also heard about scientists neglecting the whole "Glass house" theory. Even noblists. But common sense also comes into play. Scientists are quite agreed that single vulcano eruption did make come global cooling due to massive sulfur emmision into atmosphere some years ago(150 ?). And that it did have impact on agriculture. So why should't it happen due to human production ?



- Miecznik

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#12 Post by tkobo » Jun 10 2008

Hheheheh, thats okay.For despite some of his beliefs, i still consider him level headed and intelligent overall.
So im not worried .

Some people just have topics they cant see straight in, like global warming or the sr2010 defection system :P
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#13 Post by Feltan » Jun 10 2008

Miecznik wrote: Bout enviroment - i also heard about scientists neglecting the whole "Glass house" theory. Even noblists. But common sense also comes into play. Scientists are quite agreed that single vulcano eruption did make come global cooling due to massive sulfur emmision into atmosphere some years ago(150 ?). And that it did have impact on agriculture. So why should't it happen due to human production ?



- Miecznik
Follow the money.

If you are a scientist/researcher and say "the earth is warming, the consequences are dire, and we need to act now," you will get funding and noteriety.

If you are a scientist/researcher and say "correlation does not imply causation, and it is just as likely that a warming envrionment causes increased carbon in the atmosphere," you will be ignored and ridiculed.

So, if you are a scietist/researcher and want to feed your family, what do you publish?

If you were a politician in the Warsaw Pact during the cold war, would you say "hey, let's give this free market economy and personal freedom a try," or did they sing the party message?

Effectively it is the same thing.

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#14 Post by Balthagor » Jun 10 2008

tkobo wrote:...Soooo.... why is it you choose to believe one and not the other?...
It is true that I have heard some people say it is true, others say it is false, and from the research I have done I believe the facts support true more than false. No, I'm not citing sources, I have neither the time nor the inclination to discuss this here.

I just didn't want Miecznik to feel alone :)
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#15 Post by Miecznik » Jun 10 2008

@ Feltan

The shematic you showed works the other way also. If scientists are generally monopolized by one theory, and goverments + societes believe in it. Any try (Not even rational one) of showing that it's opposite will bring attention. So lets say that you are a noblist that has nothing new to say, and accidentaly you publish a book telling about your counter-theory. That book will shurely sell better than the one that just follows the line. Plus the author most propably will be invited to international meetings in this topic where other will want to discuss it with him(And give cash for showing up). (Unless you are non-muslim talking about Mahomet, then most propably author will get other type of "prize").

Plus when talking about reducing emmision, witch touches some branches more then other. Author can be shure to find a kind ear for his thesis.

Assuming, we'r just a pawns in this game ; )

@ Balthagor

Thx ; )


- Miecznik

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