Ukraine..

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notus
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by notus »

That is cluster ammunition, but ukraine has not signed the treaty that forbade it
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

A news update:
Unconfirmed reports of Russia sneaking in military forces into Ukraine, Ukraine violating Russian territory by sending APCs into Russia and allegedly using banned white phosphorus in civillian/urban area's(which would constitute a war crime). Ukraine's army has also recaptured the city of Mariupol.

Links:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/1 ... 2Z20140614 (Reuters)
http://www.dw.de/russias-slow-invasion- ... a-17706523 (dw.de)
http://www.dw.de/russian-separatists-do ... a-17706532 (dw.de)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf05_7cKnYs (CNN)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npn0X_r ... xB7g4USKpg (RT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzCcBbP1VjA (RT)
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Hullu Hevonen
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Feels like NATO-Russia fails to listen to sense, sees one another as enemies... The Oil price where ~385$/bbl with Yanukovich, after change in gov in Kiev Russia changed it to 485$ to now offer the old price at an "discount" at 385$. Ukraine is demanding an price 268,5$, both sides refuse to go beyond their own demands and now is threatening Europe with an oil crisis..

Wonder what kind of people are leading these countries, the NATO/US, Russia and Ukraine, these people seem to be out for personal ambitions instead of actually leading in a democratic manner.. I honestly don't think that people, especially in europe would advocate escalating this conflict.

Links:
http://www.dw.de/ukraine-mourns-plane-v ... a-17708130
http://rt.com/news/166040-nato-train-ukraine-military/
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Col_Travis
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Col_Travis »

Putin has been backing off temporarily. He is behind the whole thing.
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

"backing off", don't thinkso, he's massing troops at the Ukraine border amid EU-Ukraine free trade agreement, think the risk of Russian invasion is higher than ever. Ukraine is being more aggressive than ever, encouraged by the US, which is also materially and economically helping Ukraine right now.

"Behind" as the evil dictator of Russia out for blood, don't thinkso. But he's one of the instigators, think he sees himself(or Russia) as forced to take these actions. Then again the West and Yanukovich is also to blame for their part. The West has from the start been encouraging the Ukraine for their own reasons, while Russia has set a "red line" as keeping Ukraine out of NATO and sees the current development in Ukraine leading to this, which would be a national security threat to Russia.

So I hope it would be that clear cut with one protagonist to blame and that all that is reportied to the mainstearm media is the unltimate truth, but I don't think so :-( .

Links:
http://www.dw.de/ukraine-to-sign-eu-eco ... a-17721148
http://www.dw.de/russian-president-puti ... a-17727242
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Well there seems to be clear blame from the local population in Donbass on the Ukrainian autorities and much anger at them.

Links:
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-rou ... ispatch-49
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-rou ... nian-plane
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Holy ****, this could soon get blown out of proportion...

Links:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 73508.html
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by sruser »

Ukraine's security service channel. Until deleted videos you can download it and see the date it was created, almost a day before the plane crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Ruges »

sruser wrote:Ukraine's security service channel. Until deleted videos you can download it and see the date it was created, almost a day before the plane crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g
all in Russian. cant understand jackshit. I am assuming this is the video of the Ukrainian rebels boasting about there AA capabilities before the plane was shot down? That's the problem with making threats. People tend to look at you when the deed you threatened happens.

An interesting read in the newspaper today was apparently Russian news is portraying the events as Ukrainian or Western caused. Meaning our papers are saying they did it and there papers are saying we did it. Puts up a scary case, that can lead to a dangerous unwanted situation. I think the best thing that could happen would for which other side who did to come forward and says opps we F'ed up, sorry. Since I doubt downing a civilian plane was intentional.

Although it shows what can happen when you put an untrained person in a high stress situation, that require immediate responses. Since this was probably the result of some conscript/private given orders to shoot down enemy planes. And he being in a warzone there are two types of planes, yours and there's. And that was not one of his planes. (not even realizing that it was a civilian plane).


You could almost blame the airlines for flying across the region. Its a warzone over there right now with over 30 planes (I think that's what the report said) being shot down over the last month. However in a bid to save money by not flying around the region. it turned around and bit them in the ass.
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number47
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by number47 »

Well, the Russian radars saw who launched the rocket and the US radars saw who launched the rocket. What makes me wonder why the f*** are they both silent? If either has the evidence of other being the culprit, than what political games are making them wait to make those evidence public?

I recently saw a video in russian or ukrainian but has english subtitles (I would appreciate if any Russian or Ukrainian speaking person can confirm the subtitles), published a month ago, where a rebel soldier is describing a tactic Ukrainian airforce had been using in recent attacks. Attack plane would shadow a civilian airplane (to mask his radar image) until he reaches the target. Than he would come out of the "shadow", deliever the payload and hide again.

Now, is this true or not, I have honestly no idea but if the same thing happened with flight MH17 (there have been Russian reports of Ukrainian Su-25 being seen in the vincinity of the MH17 before the downing), it would most certainly make Russians and US wait for the oportune moment to make their knowleage public (or maybe stay silent forever). Why? Well, this would mean the rebels shot down a civilian plane while targeting a military plane using civilian plane as a shield...a f***ed up situation for both sides if you get my drift. :-?
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Lea
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Lea »

number47 wrote:
1. Nor European/American nor Russian radars couldn't saw small missile for hundreds of miles.
2. This missile was visible only for optical/IR reconnaissance satellites and only over clouds.
3. Video translate is roughly correct, Krinkov girl talk nonsense because:
4. Attack plane flying at 5-15,000 feet, airliners at 30,000 feet altitude. So some Su-25 could hide the MH-17 behind from a land-based radar, not vice versa.
Ruges wrote:However in a bid to save money by not flying around the region. it turned around and bit them in the ass.
Airliners flying over Afghanistan, Iraq and other warlike activity areas. It's very difficult to find and learn how to use a medium-range surface-to-air missile systems.
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number47
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by number47 »

Lea wrote: 1. Nor European/American nor Russian radars couldn't saw small missile for hundreds of miles.
2. This missile was visible only for optical/IR reconnaissance satellites and only over clouds.
3. Video translate is roughly correct, Krinkov girl talk nonsense because:
4. Attack plane flying at 5-15,000 feet, airliners at 30,000 feet altitude. So some Su-25 could hide the MH-17 behind from a land-based radar, not vice versa.
1.&2. I was under impression that a 5.5m long and 700kg heavy rocket could be detectable by Voronezh radar from Armavir or Pionersky radar stations or by over-the-horizon radar in Cyprus. I could be wrong as I'm no expert in the field...
3.&4. True, while there is no need for attack plane to fly higher than 5-15,000 feet while conducting combat operations that doesn't mean it can't go higher.

Not that it will mater, but I wonder if we will ever find out what happened that day...
Ruges wrote:You could almost blame the airlines for flying across the region. Its a warzone over there right now with over 30 planes (I think that's what the report said) being shot down over the last month. However in a bid to save money by not flying around the region. it turned around and bit them in the ass.
I read somewhere that the Malaysia Airlines decided to transfer their plans to another route to avoid flying over/near Ukraine in the future...now they'll fly over Syria HUH :lol: |O
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Lea
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Lea »

1.Only if it was waiting for the missile at the point. Operation mode of radars like that is optimized for aircrafts and ballistic missiles searching.
2. Su-25 can't. There is just one percent theoretically - for new aircraft without weapon and crawling clumsy like a turtle (much slower than airliner).
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Think the Russians actually provided some 'evidence' with satelite and radar photos on the position of Ukrainian Air Defence units. best link I could find within short notice http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-cras ... questions/
I haven't how ever seen any evidence to the contrary from the USA which has been pointing fingers as well, and to me implies that they think they should be trusted to be speaking the truth instead of having to provide evidence. I think at this point everyone should put their cards on the table and then let an impartial and international team of investigators deal with it. This finger pointing is nonsense, makes you wonder if the perp actually know that they shot it down.

I see 3 likely scenarios
1. The Ukrainian Su-25 was trying to hide it's radar signature in MH17, rebels saw it and shot, think was they hit an airliner
2. Ukrainian military, after having swaped some military units with loyalists, which hasn't always been that professional(see shelling of Donets, Russia, Ukrainian APCs driving through a Russian border checkpoint etc), they highly inaccurate artillery fire and lack of care of civillians in urban areas. Concluding that they could of placed an loyalist volunteer or recruit from the new National Guard at the helm of an Buk.
3. One thing that I think is however unlikely is that Russia would have directly been behind this, meaning shot a missile from it's territory. They could of however done it via one of their paramilitaries that are in Donbass, which is a 3. scenario, I suppose, although this would mean that if Russia didn't give the order then they are not that in control.

There are possible other scenarios as well, but I don't personally se them as likely.
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Re: Ukraine..

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

This will end badly for Russia if The west decides to intervene..
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 28974.html
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