Enforced RFID

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Gurc
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Enforced RFID

Post by Gurc »

What would you say if your government enforced RFID for you as a countermeasure against terrorism?

Would your answer be different if government enforced RFID for immigrants?

Would your answer be different if government enforced RFID for muslims(or a minority that has terrorism potential)?
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by iuvart »

No, no and no.

And what constitutes a minority "that has terrorism potential"?
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by tkobo »

Peoples "fear" of the gov knowing where they are is kind of funny.....
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by Gurc »

iuvart wrote: And what constitutes a minority "that has terrorism potential"?
Let's say there is a correlation between the people who make terrorism. It can be a broad community like ethnicity or religion, or these people can be meeting in a common internet room or be meeting at a certain cafe. Not all members of this community has commmited a crime and they have not declared an agenda that includes terrorism(unlike Hamas). Government knows that 5%(or more for your chice) of members of this community has commited a terrorist crime already. I define this as a "a minority that has terrorism potential"
tkobo wrote:Peoples "fear" of the gov knowing where they are is kind of funny.....
After enforced RFID, government can say it will connect your social security and bank account to this identity and this makes sense. In the future all money can also be digital. These will stop corruption and identity theft(maybe there will be ways to make fake RFID). If the government becomes corrupt and you object to this or rebel against it, government can just exclude you from all the system by freezing your bank account. These are ideas given in Zeitgeist. It is conspiracy theory, still it creeps me out. I fear the extent of labeling citizens can go and how much this can effect citizens lives. Currently 1/3 of all phones are officially tagged and recorded (ofc. they are not listened by actual people)in Turkey. In the future police might "accidentally" leak what I said 10 years ago for harming my reputation(1). I do not know how much RFID information can be exploited.

(1) Just happened in Aziz Yıldırım's (a football club president) police investigation. Details of jusgement were leaked before court for publically framing him and no one in police force was judged. I also believe he is guilty, everyone knew he bribed opponent teams but the way of judgement is unfair.
Last edited by Gurc on Aug 23 2011, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Enforced RFID

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tkobo
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by tkobo »

^ :lol:
Dont worry, your tinfoil hats will "block the signal" :lol:
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by Rhyus »

i would say no, yes and not sure on the last one
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by Ruges »

I think RFIDing everyone is a great idea. There are so many things that would benifiet from it. Oh sure if the government ever decided to commit genocide it would make things easier for them. So might not be the greatest thing for a dictatorship government. But here in the US, where the people are the government I dont see it as being an issue. But I do believe there should be safeguards for such an evenuality. Make it possible to remove the chip should the issue arise. Although it should be difficult to remove and be destroyed once removed to prevent people from poping it in and out whilly nilly.

But think of all the benifiets. There would be only organized crime, as your average joe would get caught on the first offense. People that get lost could be easily tracked. Traffic patterns could be easily monitored and adjusted based on flow. Open it up to commerce being able to track customers could improve thier effeciency. Companies could track employee's to see if they are in thier work stations or slacking off. They could even tell if you called in to work sick and instead went to the baseball game. Police would be able to tell who was near the area of a crime, And really with this ability crime should plumit. it could also contain bank info, so you just have to walk in grab what you want and leave. It could contain medical info for emerancies. Even monitor your life signs and notify authorities when there is a problem.

Over all the money and life saved from RFIDing everyone far out weighs the risk of genocide. Sure you wont be able to commit your petty crimes anymore, But I always feel that if its against the law to do and you think you should be able to do it. You should contact your local politition and petition the law get changed so you can do it.
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Re: Enforced RFID

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What would you say if your government enforced RFID for you as a countermeasure against terrorism?

I wouldn't really mind. As long as my details (Like the shops, bars I go in etc) weren't used for marketing purposes. I'm always of the mind, If you haven't done anything wrong you've got nothing to hide. I mean really... OH NOEZ THE GOVERSMENT NOES I SPEND 2 MANY HOURZ ON COMPUTZOR AND MONIES ON ALCOHOLZ NOOOOOOEZ! Some people need to get a grip as if the government cares where you eat or drink as long as you pay your taxes and don't go raping or stabbing I think your well under the governments care factor.

Would your answer be different if government enforced RFID for immigrants?

Yes definately. Because I support point A and why should a native have them but not Immigrants. Just to move away from Immigrants I also think the chips should be universal so a person going on holiday to Britain from say The USA should beable to just have their chip entered onto the UK customs system until they go back to the USA in which case they'll just be switched back to the American Customs System.

Would your answer be different if government enforced RFID for muslims(or a minority that has terrorism potential)?

I think targetting specific groups of people could be very dangerous and open to so many lawsuits it would be untrue. Where as if it was everyone then although lots of people would complain they couldn't say "Its because i'm Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, White, Black, Brown and so forth".
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by Ruges »

CptBritish wrote:I wouldn't really mind. As long as my details (Like the shops, bars I go in etc) weren't used for marketing purposes.
I dont see why people get so upset about stuff like this. Personaly I think we would be better off with such things as they would be able to taylor marketing towards you the consumer. This could also lead towards products being more taylored for you too. Basicaly your saying no to better content. Where the real issue is the type and amount of marketing aimed to you. Thats what you should be protesting, not the content. Saying no to companies farming data to what your likes and dislikes are does not mean you will get less advertisments, just means you will get advertisments for stuff you are interested in. Infact saying yes could mean less advertisments becouse they wont need to bother you with stuff your not interested in.
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by iuvart »

Ruges wrote:I think RFIDing everyone is a great idea. There are so many things that would benifiet from it. Oh sure if the government ever decided to commit genocide it would make things easier for them. So might not be the greatest thing for a dictatorship government. But here in the US, where the people are the government I dont see it as being an issue. But I do believe there should be safeguards for such an evenuality. Make it possible to remove the chip should the issue arise. Although it should be difficult to remove and be destroyed once removed to prevent people from poping it in and out whilly nilly.

But think of all the benifiets. There would be only organized crime, as your average joe would get caught on the first offense. People that get lost could be easily tracked. Traffic patterns could be easily monitored and adjusted based on flow. Open it up to commerce being able to track customers could improve thier effeciency. Companies could track employee's to see if they are in thier work stations or slacking off. They could even tell if you called in to work sick and instead went to the baseball game. Police would be able to tell who was near the area of a crime, And really with this ability crime should plumit. it could also contain bank info, so you just have to walk in grab what you want and leave. It could contain medical info for emerancies. Even monitor your life signs and notify authorities when there is a problem.

Over all the money and life saved from RFIDing everyone far out weighs the risk of genocide. Sure you wont be able to commit your petty crimes anymore, But I always feel that if its against the law to do and you think you should be able to do it. You should contact your local politition and petition the law get changed so you can do it.
You are joking, right?
Right...?

The issue isn't genocide, the issue is (the right to) privacy and civil liberties. Never mind that you would be broadcasting your information to everyone with an RFID-reader. Never mind that it would be laughably easy to steal an identity.
Your country, where "the people are the government" practices illegal wiretapping [1], indefinite detainment without trial (abolishing habeas corpus) [2][3], torture [4] and in the past has rounded up whole ethnic [5][6] or ideological [7] groups for illegal detention. All despite so called safeguards against each of them, because the government just ignored them. And you see no potential for abuse in chipping every single citizen?

You also misunderstand the benefits of RFID. RFID is not GPS-tracking. An RFID-chip can be read from a range of maybe 20 meters, it can not be used to track people reliable enough to eliminate crime as you imply. It can not be used to monitor your vital signs, it can not notify anybody by itself and I'll say again: Any information on it can be easily read by anyone with a scanner. Unless you splash out for around $ 10 per chip to have an encrypted version. But unless you want to have that chip in your body replaced every few years (or even more frequent) no encryption currently possible will last its whole lifetime [8]. And you would have no indication that the security of your chip has been breached. Putting personal or bank info on something like that? Not a great idea.

And allowing companies to track their employee's every move? Do I really need to explain why that is a bad idea, never mind illegal?

So, I don't see any way RFIDing everybody would save money or lives. I don't care about a risk of genocide, because not having RFID-chips won't deter a genocidal maniac or government. But I do care about the privacy and civil liberties issues with this kind of thing and there are many.

Edit: I always love it when people say stuff like that:
CptBritish wrote: I'm always of the mind, If you haven't done anything wrong you've got nothing to hide.
The answer is: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... of_pr.html
Or, if you want to know what constant surveillance leads to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

[1] http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-31/just ... s=PM:CRIME
[2] http://denouncetorture.amnestyusa.org/s ... ground.htm
[3] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a ... abeas-2007
[4] http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/torture
[5] http://www.archives.gov/education/lesso ... elocation/
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_A ... internment
[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mccarthyism
[8] http://www.mobilemag.com/2006/02/03/glo ... n-2-hours/
Last edited by iuvart on Aug 25 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by CptBritish »

Ruges wrote:
CptBritish wrote:I wouldn't really mind. As long as my details (Like the shops, bars I go in etc) weren't used for marketing purposes.
I dont see why people get so upset about stuff like this. Personaly I think we would be better off with such things as they would be able to taylor marketing towards you the consumer. This could also lead towards products being more taylored for you too. Basicaly your saying no to better content. Where the real issue is the type and amount of marketing aimed to you. Thats what you should be protesting, not the content. Saying no to companies farming data to what your likes and dislikes are does not mean you will get less advertisments, just means you will get advertisments for stuff you are interested in. Infact saying yes could mean less advertisments becouse they wont need to bother you with stuff your not interested in.
The main advertisments I get to my house are take-out flyers and they send people door to door lol. I wouldn't want to risk been bombarded with stuff just because they think I might be interested. Also i wouldn't really be 'upset' just slightly peeved that my paper and card recycling bin fills up quicker than before.

Yes to the security issue. No to more waste because to be honest very few leaflets catch my eye and the ones that do are usually around election time so I can see which politician is lying about what today.

But the technology would have to be secure and funded by the government because no matter how insignificant £/$/€10 can be to most working people I can't see the people funding it and also it would need to be tracable from anywhere on the planet which would need massive investment.
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by tkobo »

tkobo wrote:Peoples "fear" of the gov knowing where they are is kind of funny.....
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iuvart
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by iuvart »

tkobo wrote:Peoples "fear" of the gov knowing where they are is kind of funny.....
Reducing complex and valid issues like the right to privacy and the limits of government power and surveillance to a single misleading sentence is kinda funny too. And a strawman argument. [1]

[1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
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Re: Enforced RFID

Post by tkobo »

If you say so...

To me,its a case of 'If your that fearful of your own country,your in the wrong country" type of thing...and that the" omg the black helicopters and the men in black suits" believing types continually display classic examples of mental illness,and firmly buy into the "Oh Noes,they can find me !" line of thought....says a lot....
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