Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

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Lightbringer
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Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lightbringer »

Alright. In another thread it was pointed out the theorem that Governmental organizations that claim they will fix everything and make everyone's life super peachy keen are full of Bullspit because if they ever managed to fulfill such claims, they would be out of business.

So... Here in this thread, I welcome any and all to try and explain to me why this isn't true. I don't want flaming. Try not to dissect Rightwing political theory too much. Just explain to me why Left Wing politics isn't a scam similar to a drug dealer telling a junky that the next "bump" will cure his addiction. :wink:

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by aenri »

Could you clarify your position, or your question? You want examples of goverment organizations that work? Can it be from outside the US?

EDIT : Found the previous thread :)
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by The Khan »

What do you think about Al Jazeera?
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by tkobo »

@light, you realize your basically asking the "junky" why the "dealer" is a good thing ...right ?
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lightbringer »

@Tkobo,

Yes... Yes, I do. However, I am also trying to gain some understanding of why they became "junkies" in the first place. What sort of twist or spin caused them to think that way. I might do some counter-point replying, but really, this thread is to try and hear what they have to say.

@Khan,

I don't view/read\surf their stuff often enough to have a solid opinion. What I do ingest from them seems to lean left like most major media outlets.

@Aenri,

Yes, you can bring up examples from anywhere you like. As mentioned above, I might try and present a polite counterpoint, or ask some pointed questions, but my usual vehemence against the left is off limits in this thread. Again, as mentioned, I am on a fact finding mission, not "seek and destroy". One aspect that I am very curious about is the fairly common promises from left wing politicos to make everyone's life better... to make everything "fair". This is a two part question. 1. Since this "fairness" has very obviously not occurred, why keep believing the same empty promises over and over again? 2. Since "fighting injustice", or "economic justice", or "fighting to end poverty" (and other such themes) are so successful for left wing politicos; Why do you think they would make any real efforts to actually solve the problems that got them elected in the first place? (I freely admit that too many righties use the same tactic, IE to campaign against big government and then do absolutely nothing to shrink it.)

Anyway, I am trying to open up a conversation outside of our normal mudslinging modus operandi.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by tkobo »

Addiction is a mental illness.Often caused by physical defect.The defect can be "natural" or inflicted.Studies show the majority of addicts have a learning disability,as do the majority of criminals.The greater majority of these disabilities are physical .

This is why they fail to learn from their behavior,and often cant grasp simple concepts like "right and wrong".And its why comorbidity is so common among addicts.
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by fool »

Well, if we're talking about social democracy, if they did manage to fix all these problems it would be through the government, and maintaining everything would presumably be their job. It seems what you're saying is: surely anyone who tries to change things can't be serious. If they succeeded, there'd be nothing left to change and they'd have nothing to do!
The question is, why doesn't this apply to absolutely everything? Why just the left?
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by aenri »

Lightbringer wrote:...One aspect that I am very curious about is the fairly common promises from left wing politicos to make everyone's life better... to make everything "fair". This is a two part question. 1. Since this "fairness" has very obviously not occurred, why keep believing the same empty promises over and over again?...
There is nice word for what are you describing (at least in my opinion) - populism, i.e. appeal to masses, or the plague of democracy, politicians will promise you anything for your vote (until they have it). But as you also pointed it's not just problem of the "left", "right" politicians have also populistic issues.
Lightbringer wrote:...2. Since "fighting injustice", or "economic justice", or "fighting to end poverty" (and other such themes) are so successful for left wing politicos...
I'm not from USA (actually from Slovakia), so I will list some populism for "right" from my country - nationalism/sometimes almost xenophobia, homophobia + religion, privatization, improvement of bussiness enviroment, less taxes, and more. For the "left" side we have - more power for unions, more taxes, equality, "free" education, state owned healthcare/insurance, and more...

Well, you can spin almost everything to populistic heights (less taxes - more money for people!, high taxes - the rich will pay!).

In my country "fighting" injustice and "fighting" to end poverty are in political programs of all parties (right to left). Granted, fighting injustice as in fighting corruption/other problems in law system.
Lightbringer wrote:...Why do you think they would make any real efforts to actually solve the problems that got them elected in the first place?(I freely admit that too many righties use the same tactic, IE to campaign against big government and then do absolutely nothing to shrink it.)...
For my country's politics it is the "blame game" that prevents this. If they won't solve problems, the opposition will call them on it (and promise THEY will solve it (although in a different way)), and people's vote will swing. The problem is, will THEY solve it? Hopefully yes...

So I don't know what are you requesting - list of common "left" populistic arguments?
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lightbringer »

Fool wrote:The question is, why doesn't this apply to absolutely everything? Why just the left?
I wrote:(I freely admit that too many righties use the same tactic, IE to campaign against big government and then do absolutely nothing to shrink it.)
It does to a certain degree Fool. I'm asking y'all, because I do not understand how and why you support the positions you support. I understand why I support the positions I support.

@aenri,

I am not asking for a list of common "Leftist" populist talking points. I'm asking for explanations of why anyone supports them. For example, I support lower taxes and less government regulation, because I have experienced both losing a job because of crappy business environment caused by regulations and taxes; and gaining employment, better pay, overtime, and smaller taxes coming out of my paycheck when the government burden was lowered. I have first hand personal experience at how each end of the spectrum affects me. Can anyone look at the swarming entitlement class mobs and honestly believe that Government largesse has made their life better? I am sure that some people do, but I fail to comprehend how. I'm really not trying to attack the positions of the left. My main goal is to understand why people support them.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lea »

Lightbringer wrote: I'm asking for explanations of why anyone supports them.
The answer is trivial: because they need it.
Now you look at the world through your "paycheck", "taxes" and etc. When the capitalism refers to your competitive instincts, the socialism appeals to morality and ethics. Helping those who suffer, share his pain.

Are you think that this people looking for opportunities? Yes, they looking for opportunity to emerge out of the capitalism, the competition and the struggle for survival. They are tired of struggle, they want to get a life ring.

So, the capitalism in original form is a very efficient system. Rather, was a such system a few centuries ago. And the socialism was very progressive, humane and honorable for Early Christian and other similar. The main problem is that the State has absorbed them all: socialism, capitalism, belief, valor, generally all.

Return to the topic. You are offended that leftists do not want to play by your rules, rules of the wild capitalism without its inherent cruelty. They understand that there are no wolves herbivores, they do not want to climb over the heads. Instead, they slowly and quietly become mindless and soulless cells of body of the State.

So you think you know the best choice. But I don't.
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by aenri »

Hm, I think that the main keyword here should be "minimum standards". We will probably agree that they should exist, the only question is where should they be. And that's for government to decide... (because we haven't got any better solution yet). I think that's the idea behind all these regulations. That's why I support "left" policies (such as minimum wage/state healthcare/labor law/many other regulations...).
Lightbringer wrote:My main goal is to understand why people support them.
According to Lea, people "need" them. I am inclined to agree to some degree, because there are some things that everyone needs (basic needs as food and other...). The question is, how much should the government sponsor such "subsidy".

People will support the person who promises them the most (it comes down back to populism I think). I don't want to be elitist, but there are not so many people interested/knowing in/of workings of economics/government. And they take ideas of their prefered political leaders.

I will append one anecdote from my country - There was a proposal from our government to buy pasta (and some other foods) and distribute them amongst poorest people, but there was an outrage against it, that the government is demeaning the people and delegating them to such level that they cannot even afford food (it was likened to such things as Salvation Army in USA - in our country it's mainly Red Cross and religious organizations). But they were/are OK with money subsidy. The idea is that even poor people sometimes reject help from government (or in my country they do).
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lightbringer »

@Lea,

*shrugs* You offer a boiled down choice...

Image

I would counter that it is not quite that simple. I haven't killed or maimed anyone to retain my employment. I have not put a gun to someone's head and taken food from them and their family. I highly doubt that my employer has even put anyone else out of work through our success. On the other hand, while many who become dependent on the Government allow their initiative to atrophy, I would hardly call most of them "mindless and soulless cells of the body of state".

I will agree with the basic premise. Some people are wired to strive and struggle against obstacles... to "Fight" if you will. And some people are wired to look to other, stronger people to take care of them... to surrender, to hide, to run away. They have the "Flight" response. I shall keep my opinions to myself, but you know which I am. I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

@aenri
...but there was an outrage against it, that the government is demeaning the people and delegating them to such level that they cannot even afford food...
To me, that is how a Human being should react to any proposed Government entitlement. Sadly, Human beings do not often hold themselves to any such standards. All too many greedily, even eagerly swallow the Blue Pill.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Lea »

Lightbringer wrote:I would counter that it is not quite that simple. I haven't killed or maimed anyone to retain my employment. I have not put a gun to someone's head and taken food from them and their family. I highly doubt that my employer has even put anyone else out of work through our success.
In other words, the wolf is not hungry. Unemployment is an incentive to work harder at the capitalism. Under socialism the state would provide jobs (or welfare) for all. So think what does your employment looks like...
Lightbringer wrote:I shall keep my opinions to myself, but you know which I am. I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
So demonstrative slogan... I prefer to do what I need and not being distracted by the excessive fights.
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

so the question is, why can't govsmake our lives perfect?
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Re: Lucy...!! You got some 'splainin to do!

Post by fool »

because they're bastards.
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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