Don't ask, Don't tell

[fool]

Why should morality decide is homosexuality fully accepted or not? So my moral thinks differently from yours, there is not one morality. So who's morality decides? your's?

Well, it does, like it or not. I just think that disapproving of things that don't negatively impact anyone is silly.

[domcoppinger]

I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade. I don't wish to speak out about anyone. However there are certain people in this world that have a problem, and we need to help them overcome their problem. These people are ignorant and most likely don't follow the teachings of the Bible. However I believe that they have a right to exist as much as any of us, that is what freedom is about, freedom can only be universal. As soon as you start to restrict freedom you open the system to abuse.

It is for these reasons that I feel we all need to educate those with a problem, so that they can learn better ways and can improve themselves. The simple fact is that most of the people that speak out against gays and gay rights use the bible as their justification or as evidence. Yet most of these people no little to nothing of the bible. There are only 6 or 7 versus, of the roughly one million found in the Bible, that even refer to same sex behavior. Admittedly there are a couple of lines in the bible that condemn homosexual behavior. (Th "gay bashers" applaud) And here comes the BUT. And it is a big BUT! Read the following quotes from the bible:

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

So as you can see there are a large number of people who sin according to the Lord God our Father. Yet do we chastise them in the way that homosexuals are? No. We do not openly condemn people who divorce, and given that more than half of marriages end in divorce it is a good job we don't! We would lose our voices criticizing all those people. And yet divorcees are openly allowed to enter into the services, despite their not so great mention in the bible. I am also fairly sure that it is no longer common practice for a female to remain a virgin until their wedding night. In fact it is hard to find a women who is celibate in our modern society. So the question is, how shall we do this? Pair up? One man feeds the rocks the other throws them? Or shall we see if we can arrange for an Auschwitz situation to help us get through the vast numbers of women we need to execute by stoning. What about the adulterers we also need to kill? Or the widows who need to sleep with their dead husbands brothers? The fact is we CANNOT rely on some of the more radical teachings of the bible as guidance in our modern society. The world is a vastly different place from the world in which these laws were set up.

As to the argument of homosexuality being unnatural, well who knows. It could be that homosexuality is a dysfunction of sorts. But then you have to ask yourself what makes it so? The difference between most dysfunctions and behaviors is how they affect our lives and how well we can function, typically a dysfunction involves, FFA or failure to function adequately. So you must ask yourself does homosexuality stop people from functioning properly? Another way of looking at homosexual behavior as unnatural is to consider whether it occurs in nature. It is certainly not a new behavior, as has already been mentioned in this thread homosexual behavior occurred in cities of the old testament. A long time before Jesus was born. It also occurs in animals, In fact if you want to you can check out a list of the "Worlds most famous homosexual animals", which includes animals such as, elephants, dolphins and monkeys. But of course all these animals to must be unnatural, even when it has recently been shown that over 1500 species of animals exhibit same sex behavior (http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx) and that this behaviour is in many cases a product of natural selection that helps the species to survive! (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... study.html)

All in all this is evidence that homosexual behavior should not be looked down upon but accepted as an everyday part of society and then people should just move on. As to the removal of Don't ask, Don't tell. Great! It is a sickening part of the military that deserves to be in the past. Is it disgusting to think that in our modern world we would ask people to hide who and what they are for fear of repercussions. It was not so long ago that black people were unable to serve in the armed forces alongside their white comrades, yet now this seems like a ridiculous concept to many.

Also as a footnote, if you want to read a very interesting article that relates to this all, head over to (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose ... -christian)

[Hullu Hevonen]

Very well written domcoppinger, I am mostly on the same page, but from a more scientific view.

[Rhyus]

Ok i need to point out again i am not in any way against gays or in any way saying that people should not be gay. I believe that people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they are not hurting anyone. Now Hullu in nature things dont just happen there is some logic behind it watch some documentary's on nature and evolution and you will see what i mean. Now to answer "why did "nature create" the human homosexual version then?" some people are born death,blind, without limbs and so on its just lets say natures mistakes as nature is not perfect like everything else in this universe.

[Hullu Hevonen]

ok, well, I totally a accept gay people(sorry to those who don't).

[domcoppinger]

Ok i need to point out again i am not in any way against gays or in any way saying that people should not be gay. I believe that people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they are not hurting anyone. Now Hullu in nature things dont just happen there is some logic behind it watch some documentary's on nature and evolution and you will see what i mean. Now to answer "why did "nature create" the human homosexual version then?" some people are born death,blind, without limbs and so on its just lets say natures mistakes as nature is not perfect like everything else in this universe.

You are so right, apart from the part where you compare homosexuality to being born with a deformity. If you had read the links I provided in my post then you would have seen that homosexuality has a BENEFICIAL (rather than logical) part in natural selection. In fact read these quotes from the link:

"They found that on the Hawaiian island of Oahu, almost a third of the Laysan albatross population is raised by pairs of two females because of the shortage of males. Through these 'lesbian' unions, Laysan albatross are flourishing. Their existence had been dwindling before the adaptation was noticed."

"Writing in Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Dr Nathan Bailey, an evolutionary biologist at California University, said previous studies have failed to consider the evolutionary consequences of homosexuality.
He said same homosexual behaviour was often a product of natural selection to further the survival of the species."

"Other species form same-sex bonds for other reasons, they found. Dolphins have been known engage in same-sex interactions to facilitate group bonding while male-male pairings in locusts killed off the weaker males."

So perhaps homosexuality is not a genetic deformity like you proposed but in fact as much a part of nature as anything else.

[fool]

Evolution doesn't work on a "species" basis, homosexuality definitely is a 'defect' in terms of natural selection. Same-sex parenting could well be a different matter, but pretty much by definition homosexuality is an evolutionary defect - obviously anything that means an individual doesn't reproduce counts as a defect. Then again, I'd imagine there are (successful) cases of bisexuality in animals, since that wouldn't prevent reproduction.

[Hullu Hevonen]

Evolution doesn't work on a "species" basis, homosexuality definitely is a 'defect' in terms of natural selection. Same-sex parenting could well be a different matter, but pretty much by definition homosexuality is an evolutionary defect - obviously anything that means an individual doesn't reproduce counts as a defect. Then again, I'd imagine there are (successful) cases of bisexuality in animals, since that wouldn't prevent reproduction.

you know, homosexuals aren't castrated people. they can reproduce. sure they might love and be with a same sex, but they can still arrange with eg. other homosexuals of same sex, have a normal relationship etc, there i nothing restricting a homosexual to have sex with only one same sexed.

[fool]

That's pretty much what it means, if they also have sex with the other gender then they're bisexual.

[The Khan]

*looks at Bible quotes*

I'm glad I dont follow any of these crazed stuff

[LiKaapstad]

I have a feeling I shouldn't involve myself but yet I feel obligated to intervene in such discussions.I believe those who can't accept homosexuals are like that of someone who has yet to come to any understanding.I respect all opinions, but I hate blind opposition.
I honestly dont think to many Gays would join the army if they weren't ready to take the bullshit from homophobic people. Gays love there country as much as any other American.It's obvious though,this bill makes NO difference and changing really doesnt help any cause.
Perhaps this topic is very controversial for this forums, BUT its alright because we havefreedoms unlike any other nations. At the same time, we should respect others regardless....

[Rhyus]

well said

[LiKaapstad]

well said

Thanks. I was kind of angry when I wrote back my opinion on this topic

[domcoppinger]

Well said indeed!

[Necrophobia_70]

I believe being homosexual just mean the person in question is attracted to people of the same sex, nothing more. So, Good riddance.