USA Elections

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Democratic Party
10
27%
Republican Party
11
30%
Green Party
4
11%
Libertarian Party
3
8%
Prohibition Party
0
No votes
Socialist Party USA
3
8%
Independent
5
14%
Other
1
3%
 
Total votes: 37
Hullu Hevonen
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/op ... 36524.html

Paul Rosenberg has some ideas, :lol: , well I agree there's a strong Christian presence in USA, but I don't think that the Americans would put up a theocracy... or? better hope these "America's own Taliban" won't win the election :lol: , it would be sad to se 九一一袭击事件(Chinese for 9/11, implying similar would happine in China by these so called Aerican (christian-)Taliban) happine and that there would be a Russo-Chinese war on terrorism to establish puppets in former USA :cry: .

Who will cowboy-up and go fly a plane into Shanghai? can't be me I ain't American :P

Sorry for the critic if someone is offended, I think this dude is a bit off on his claims/theories, he bases his fact more on what he finds on the internet then actual research.
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Lightbringer
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Lightbringer »

@Hullu,

Do you just skip over my long, detailed comments completely? I have explained and explained and explained this over and over and over again.

Image

March 16, 2006
The debt now stands at more than $8.2 trillion.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5282521

Today our debt is over $14 trillion

That's why it is "so bad not to cut". If Obama gets his $2 Trillion+ debt ceiling increase, they will have doubled our debt in five years.

As for Barrack Obama's "plan", it is meaningless verbal crap. He has not put any plan into writing. The Democrats have not put any plan into writing. The Cuts they are talking about (and sadly most of the Repub cuts as well) are... "We'll only grow this department by $10 billion, instead of $20 billion... that's a $10 Billion cut!" But even those types of cuts are mostly scheduled for 10 years down the road. Long after our credit rating has been downgraded to toilet paper. And until they put something into writing, their word is as good as the object of toilet paper.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Lightbringer wrote: ...
-Light
there was some explanation on page three, and that graf is not that clear as you say either, it could be interpered in many ways, the only thing it realy says how much total defict per year, there is no real i that evil obama is behind that or all that, some point to bush that the wars he started, the bills/acts he passed etc started the defict rise. While it could be Obamas "fault", though what has obama done to case that defict increase? This you have not explained any real thing about this, you have 'explained' some stuff, like on page 3 you had some explanatory posts and poped your new graf there in another post there. other wise you have compared Obama to Lucifer(or whoever) (page 4) talked about democrats and slaves etc. no real explaining. on page 2 we where still much caught whit the socialism discussion. and now page five we have you saying you have explained a bunch.

On page 3 you point out that 3,75 trillion over 10 years, yes, but will the defict be over 3,75 billion in 2021? and you show some actual numbers. but does it awnser my "What does the reps offer and what does the dems and why is one better then the other?" question? no, but you put the problem on the table and point out defics (and then point the blame on Obama and the dems (without saying what they did to do that) etc. so what does exactly the reps and dems propose to fix the defics you pointed out?
You say you have explained many times over, you have not explained why the reps defict plan is better, I don't belive you simply by hearing you pointing towards someone else and saying they are at fault and there fore we are the better ones, then I have counter you whit pointing out something saying the opposite(and hoped you'll see that your not really getting to anyone else then other reps here). Maybe I should of been clearer, but, this is supposed to be a debate(talking about the issue at hand) and not attacking and pointing blame. Well, to understand who is better we need to be open minded and examine the plans out there. I have tried to point out some dem plans that I found, very well you say there is nothing on paper, well ok, but ain't it a 'plan' or something still? You can show that the dept & defict was lower before Obama, but how do you prove it is he that is responsible, because he was in office then? Something can be 'inherited', and those deficts could still have come even if Jonh McCain was president instead? What specifically has Obama and the dems done?

My post above was just something I read and though was out of place and was about American politics(like this thread is about).

EDIT: you know a depression hit the world during Obamas term as well you know, is that his fault as well?
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Lightbringer »

Image

I could spend several hours hunting down sources and links, but I can sum it up. I can blame the Dems for ballooning our deficit because I watched them do it. Stimulus that didn't stimulate, government departments with massive budget increases, Obamacare, and on and on and on. Yes Bush spent too much money, but just because he spent $100s of billions too much, does not make Obama spending $trillions too much somehow better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Unite ... ral_budget
The President's budget for 2006 totals $2.7 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Unite ... ral_budget
The President's actual budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Unite ... ral_budget
The President's budget for 2008 totals $2.9 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Unite ... ral_budget
The President's budget for 2009 totals $3.1 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Unite ... ral_budget
The President's budget request for 2010 totals $3.55 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Unite ... ral_budget
(2011)Total requested spending is $3.83 trillion
They have itemized amounts for every department including annual increases or (LMAO) decreases.

Here is what the Repubs passed in Congress (and the Dem Senate killed with a procedural vote and NO debate)
HR 2560
RSC Cut, Cap, and Balance Proposal (June 2011)

103 House Republicans sent a letter to House Republican leadership calling for a solution that could resolve the current debt limit impasse and prevent the bigger, Greece-like debt crisis just over the horizon: Cut, Cap, and Balance.

1. Cut - We must make discretionary and mandatory spending reductions that would cut the deficit in half next year.

2. Cap - We need statutory, enforceable caps to align federal spending with average revenues at 18% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), with automatic spending reductions if the caps are breached.

3. Balance - We must send to the states a Balanced Budget Amendment (BBA) with strong protections against federal tax increases and a Spending Limitation Amendment (SLA) that aligns spending with average revenues as described above.
Here is what the Dems have put on paper and proposed...
.........................................................................................................
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Now... would you like to try and debate upon which proposal is better?

I'll repeat myself... I don't think that Establishment type republicans are perfect, or even all that good. But the Dems started driving the car (which was already dangerously close to the ditch) and jammed down on the gas pedal.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: USA Elections

Post by bergsjaeger »

And I might add the Demos plan didn't have any cuts in it. They want a blank check. They want to raise and spend. They are whining over not getting their way.

The GOP did have cuts in their plan. They wanted to do away with Obamacare, but Obama said it wasn't an opinion to cut.
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Re: USA Elections

Post by The Khan »

then will they default?
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Chesehead »

The Khan wrote:then will they default?
No. Bond holders will be the first paid. Hopefully. Obama controls who gets paid through the treasury department.
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

very well, thank you :-)

EDIT: lol, after you gave me dems have nothing, reps have thing, I go on to reading one of the local news papers and find;
http://hbl.fi/nyheter/2011-07-29/republ ... enas-i-dag (swedish)
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... ag&act=url (translated to English)

apparently the reps have inner problems to get their members on their own plan. :lol:

So have I understood correctly now, the reps have a plan, but a shattered party, while the dems have no plan?
:lol:
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

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Re: USA Elections

Post by Lightbringer »

@Hullu,

#1 The split in the Repubs currently is over the Boehner plan, which is much much weaker than Cut Cap and Balance. The Boehner plan gives a large raise to the debt ceiling immediately, and weak cuts that might grow into 1/2 decent cuts... if Congress follows the "rules" ten years from now. Since they can't follow their own rules and legislation from week to week, 10 years down the road seems a bit like a fairy tale. That is why the Conservative wing is balking.

#2 Re: "Green Party Plan" You are kidding me right?
Our economy should serve us and our planet.
Ummm no. Get back to me when we have a global government. Until then, it should just serve Us.
Our current economic system is gravely flawed. It is unjust and unsustainable because it is premised on endless economic growth and destruction of nature.
Unjust? Not growing = dying. If you are not attempting to give people better quality of life, you are by default trying to reduce their quality of life.
Green economic policy places value not just on material wealth, but on the things which truly make life worth living – our health, our relationships, our communities, our environment, and building peace and justice throughout our nation and the world. We aim to maximize our quality of life with a minimum of consumption. We aspire to less "stuff" but more happiness. We propose a shift away from materialism to help people live more meaningful lives as we save the planet from climate change and ever larger mountains of waste. We need to acquire the ability to distinguish between need and greed.
As I have said repeatedly, Green = Red. The Greens simply attempt to use guilt instead of fear and brute force to impose Communist Austerity, all the while calling it Utopia. If they wish to live like drug addicts and artists, barely getting by and owning almost nothing, that is fine for them. They are free to do so. I already lived like that when I was college age. I spent the last 20 years working so that I would never have to live like that again. I also guarantee you that A: The Green Party leadership does not practice what they preach. B: In 10-20 years, most of the idealistic college students who support this lunacy will have realized that they don't want people stealing their stuff for "economic justice" any more than we do.

For a more concise opinion on the "Red Green Party", read my Sig.

-Light
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Re: USA Elections

Post by fool »

Unjust? Not growing = dying. If you are not attempting to give people better quality of life, you are by default trying to reduce their quality of life.
I don't think that it's time for economic growth to end, not by a long shot, but you have to admit everything you said there is technically wrong...
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: USA Elections

Post by Lightbringer »

@Fool,

Really? In Economic Terms? What do they call it when an economy contracts? A Recession. Is a recession considered a good thing? Would an economy in recession be considered healthy? If an economy continues to contract for long enough, guess what? Their GDP becomes ZERO. What does ZERO GDP equal? You could almost say that economy had ... Died! |O

Would you care to explain this then?
(from my quote, and the Red Green Party Manifesto)...We aspire to less "stuff"
Maybe YOU consider living in a tar paper shack and being happy eating rats you caught, and picking lice off each other for entertainment to be "increasing quality of life" or even maintaining it at an even level. But nobody else except the green Party does. They come right out and state in clear and plain English that they intend to reduce EVERYONE'S quality of life. For Economic and Ecological "justice" don't you know? :lol: :wink:

So No. Technically I was exactly correct.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: USA Elections

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Lightbringer wrote:...

-Light
lol :lol: , no you got to be kidding me :lol: , what prejudice. You will never be able to see positives in 'enemy' ideologies, btw that green party is not "red". I don't think it's worth debating this further with you,you have a too large socialit/commuinst fobia(the cold war is over!) and much prejudice. Sorry if I offend you, that is not the meaning, I am getting tired of one of the fobia's effects of labelling everything that might be used in socialism thus you label the hole thing to socialism. Without any real evidence of your claim, you really know little about these thing, you only know what might give you more ammunition to label, destroy assult etc something. You rant and make up stuff about why something in some way is "red" in your head is actually somehow red in the real world. for eg. why could not a capitalism get a "ZERO GDP", because you live in USA and USA is the best world in the world and it is a pure capitalism somehow?? ... sigh... Every ideology that are different from yours are either in some way, Sosialist, Communist, Nazist, facist etc. I get frustrated with you since it's impossible to talk to you. It is not polite to destroy debates in this manner, being so closed-minded. :-( , if this is your way of "winning" debates, very well you done it. I try to strive to achieve a better understanding of things, not directly "win" a debate.

Sorry again if I offended you, it is not my attention.

Next debate please...
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Re: USA Elections

Post by fool »

I wasn't attacking your statement in the context of the green party, it's just that you stated that if something is not growing, it is declining, and that is just wrong. There's no point debating about that really, it's just a fact. If you're going to attack the green party on those grounds, point out that "we want less stuff" bit, not the "we disagree with endless economic growth" part.
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: USA Elections

Post by Lightbringer »

@Fool, fair enough, I'll make sure to be more specific in the future.

@Hullu,

Did you even read the "Green Party" manifesto that you linked?
Our current economic system is gravely flawed. It is unjust and unsustainable because it is premised on endless economic growth and destruction of nature. Our market economy, by externalizing the environmental and social costs of greenhouse gas emissions, is creating the greatest market failure in history: climate change, and its devastating effects. Our government's top economic goal - increasing Gross Domestic Product - impels us to perpetually intensify our resource use and environmental destruction.

Green economic policy places value not just on material wealth, but on the things which truly make life worth living – our health, our relationships, our communities, our environment, and building peace and justice throughout our nation and the world. We aim to maximize our quality of life with a minimum of consumption. We aspire to less "stuff" but more happiness. We propose a shift away from materialism to help people live more meaningful lives as we save the planet from climate change and ever larger mountains of waste. We need to acquire the ability to distinguish between need and greed.

We must also end the colossal waste of taxpayer funds for armaments and war, to reduce our nation’s federal debt, and fund our environmental and social needs.

[Greens intend to provide a green job to anyone who wants one. We support using the tax system to bring more equality to our nation. Rising income inequality makes us all poorer in myriad ways. More equal societies are happier, healthier, safer and greener.

Greens supportly strong local economies and regional trade. The best model of economic security is for a community and region to be largely self-sufficient in the production of its necessities. We support not the corporate control of “free trade” – which, through the machinations of the World Trade Organization places the enrichment of multinational corporations above the level of national laws – but “fair trade,” which protects communities, labor, consumers and the environment. Local economic vibrancy and regional trade keep more money in the community and the region, rather than going to distant corporate headquarters. This is the most sensible model for economic security.

Greens will change the legal design of the corporation so that it does not maximize profits at the expense of the environment, human rights, public health, workers, or the communities in which it operates. We believe the giant multinational corporation is the world’s most potent force for environmental and social destruction.

Unlike other political parties in the modern era, the Green Party views economics not as an end in itself but as a service to community development through the building and strengthening of community bonds that constitute the social fabric.

Greens are defenders of the commons -- the vast trove of wealth owned by the people, the social and tangible assets we inherit from generations past. Most people living in this country yearn for a more vibrant and lively commons, such as a richer community life, more parks and protected wilderness, clean air and water, more silence, better access to information and knowledge, and a more nourishing culture. We must stop big business from undermining and stealing our common wealth, such as our public forests and minerals, the fruits of federal research, the public airwaves and the Internet.
Perhaps, living right next door to the Old Soviet Union, you don't recognize these as phrases as being Marxist in nature. I only highlighted the more blatant examples, and only in the preamble. And excuse me if I seem "prejudiced" against people who proclaim they want to steal the fruits of my labor for "society", legislate a Soviet Style controlled economy, and control every aspect of my life down to how many sheets of toilet paper I should use. I am in no way "prejudiced" against people in Finland, for example, who want to run things this way. Perhaps you desire such control in your life. That is your right as a human being.

You claim to be done debating me on the subject. That is your right as well. However, I was still waiting for you to actually begin. (posting somebody's manifesto doesn't explain to me why YOU agree with such thinking) Perhaps you would like a chance to explain to me why such a party, which promises in very plain English to destroy my way of life, is a good idea. I will make every attempt not to call you a "Red", or "Marxist", or "socialist", and instead I will simply explain why I disagree. Who knows, perhaps you will convince me... :wink: If you do not want to continue the discussion because you are happier dismissing my opinions as "prejudice", then I will drop the subject entirely.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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