Libyan Civil War Turnout

Off Topic Comments Area

Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, Moderators

How do you think the Libyan Civil War will end?

Pro-Gaddafi victory
3
9%
Pro-Gaddafi victory, Gaddafi will make consessions to democracy
0
No votes
Death of Gaddafi and therefor end of conflict
4
12%
Coalition occupation, end of conflict, democracy
4
12%
Coalition occupation, start of a guerilla/terrorist war
5
15%
Coalition air strikes will force gaddafi to lose
1
3%
Anti-gaddafi victory, but I don't still think democracy will prevail
10
29%
Anti-gaddafi victory
7
21%
None of these
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

Message
Author
The Khan
General
Posts: 1839
Joined: Nov 06 2007

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#46 Post by The Khan » Oct 22 2011

Hmph, a Takbir shouting bunch of dirty,disheveled brigands lynch a dictator. Nothing going for the better.

Gurc's strongest point stands. If it wasn't for the Western pressure, we wouldnt have these liberties.

European citizenry FOUGHT for these rights for centuries. Eastern and Middle Eastern people are used to grovel before Maliks,Kings,Dictators and Sheiks.

Liberty is STILL a Western idea.
I cant play SR2020 well but I still love 2010. Chris will hate me for exploiting his game to death.
Date of Order: 2007-11-15 20:03
Product information:
Supreme Ruler 2010 (1 x 19.99 USD)
3 years baby

nick-bang
Colonel
Posts: 348
Joined: Sep 07 2010
Human: Yes
Location: A dark and ominous room - only illuminated by the eerie light of a computerscreen

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#47 Post by nick-bang » Oct 22 2011

The Khan wrote:Hmph, a Takbir shouting bunch of dirty,disheveled brigands lynch a dictator. Nothing going for the better.

Gurc's strongest point stands. If it wasn't for the Western pressure, we wouldnt have these liberties.

European citizenry FOUGHT for these rights for centuries. Eastern and Middle Eastern people are used to grovel before Maliks,Kings,Dictators and Sheiks.

Liberty is STILL a Western idea.
Nonsense and irrationality - Gurc never had a point to begin with other than to state that TURKEY is fast degenerating into an islamic dictatorship. Which nobody disputed. Going from that to your claims are unfounded and frankly barely worthy of an argument.

As we already covered previously, then the middle eastern nations are very different both in their demographics, economic base and their democratic tradition - not to speak of how well educated they are (or NOT as it were). As a direct result of that then Algeria had a very easy transition with Egypt a bit behind. Libya is another matter as the nation have never been democratic and with a population who are not very well educated - like most of the rest of africa.

However I do agree that democracy is not a natural or steady state for any nation, and that it also needs decades if not centuries to mature into a viable alternative to a kingdom/dictatorship or any other medieval way of rule. Hence the need to force the newly liberated nations to find their closest approximation of democracy while holding the islamist in check.

This is a process which will take time and probably thousands of dead.

However getting rid of the mad dogs that was entrenched in their despotic, anti-humanistic and anti-democratic ways is by ANY definition an improvement. And the world is CLEARLY a better place with Khadaffi dead. Much like Rumania was without Nicolae Ceaușescu, Iraq was without Saddam and Egypt probably will be without Mubarak.
Why waste time and risk a prolonged civil war when 2 bullets could and did end them ? Khadaffi deserved everything he got and did not get everything he deserved.

And at any rate then liberty is NOT a western idea - it IS universal, hence the universal human rights along with other basic concepts like emancipation of women and freedom of speech and religion.

The fact is that a country like Iran or North Korea is not a degenerate and medieval dictatorship because of ethnic or religios beliefs but because of old people holding on to old ways ...

SoB
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 734
Joined: Sep 19 2007
Location: south of the banna rebublic

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#48 Post by SoB » Oct 22 2011

Democracy was all so forced on western nations when it first arrived. Why is the arab world different.



I do not think just killing Gadaffi was the right thing to do. He should have stood trial. Whether a show trial in libay or and long drawn out thing in a western courts.


And why will the death of Gadaffi stop a civil war. He left a power vacuum and many groups want a large share of a small pie. Not to mention some of the people wanting a piece of the pie may turn out to be bigger threats to the west.

Libay is on a tight rope it can fall to two extremes if not careful. On the one side a seconded dictator and on the other a failed state.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


CPO Mzinyati

LiKaapstad
Colonel
Posts: 300
Joined: Jun 02 2011
Human: Yes
Location: Rockwall, Tx

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#49 Post by LiKaapstad » Oct 22 2011

lol I cheated the ballet. I waited until now to answer the correct answer. -^.^-
NO PROP 8 California...Equality for ALL

Hullu Hevonen
General
Posts: 3602
Joined: Dec 11 2008
Location: Turunmaa/Turunseutu, Suomi
Contact:

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#50 Post by Hullu Hevonen » Oct 25 2011

Gaddafi have now been buried, now lets se how the new gov will manage, I have heard roomers of the new constitution being based on sharia law.
Happy Linux user!
Links: List of Mods

SoB
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 734
Joined: Sep 19 2007
Location: south of the banna rebublic

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#51 Post by SoB » Oct 26 2011

Libya is going to end up even more messed up than before. This will bite the west in the ass. Just like Afghanistan. And I am not talking about current day events but the cold war events that made the current day events possible.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


CPO Mzinyati

nick-bang
Colonel
Posts: 348
Joined: Sep 07 2010
Human: Yes
Location: A dark and ominous room - only illuminated by the eerie light of a computerscreen

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#52 Post by nick-bang » Oct 27 2011

SoB wrote:Libya is going to end up even more messed up than before. This will bite the west in the ass. Just like Afghanistan. And I am not talking about current day events but the cold war events that made the current day events possible.
Eh ... what ???

What the h... has the west got to do with anything. At all???

It wasnt us who started the jasmine revolution.
It wasnt us who started bombing demonstrators with napalm anmd clusterbombs.

And what has anything to do with the cold war ??

I really dont understand your point.

SoB
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 734
Joined: Sep 19 2007
Location: south of the banna rebublic

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#53 Post by SoB » Oct 27 2011

In the 1980 you help Afghanistan kick out the soviets and replace the communist government. Then you did nothing left them to there own devices. This action allowed the talibans to take over. And they allowed Osma a place to operate from and launch attacks on the west.



The west has helped libya over throw one dictator. But many of the forces involved are hard line crazy Muslim type. They have a habit of gaining power. And they dislike the west. I am not say libya will turn in to terrorist haven but it is a possibility.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


CPO Mzinyati

The Khan
General
Posts: 1839
Joined: Nov 06 2007

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#54 Post by The Khan » Oct 28 2011

The fact is that a country like Iran or North Korea is not a degenerate and medieval dictatorship because of ethnic or religios beliefs but because of old people holding on to old ways ...
Pfffftahahahahahahah!
I cant play SR2020 well but I still love 2010. Chris will hate me for exploiting his game to death.
Date of Order: 2007-11-15 20:03
Product information:
Supreme Ruler 2010 (1 x 19.99 USD)
3 years baby

nick-bang
Colonel
Posts: 348
Joined: Sep 07 2010
Human: Yes
Location: A dark and ominous room - only illuminated by the eerie light of a computerscreen

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#55 Post by nick-bang » Oct 30 2011

SoB wrote:In the 1980 you help Afghanistan kick out the soviets and replace the communist government. Then you did nothing left them to there own devices. This action allowed the talibans to take over. And they allowed Osma a place to operate from and launch attacks on the west.



The west has helped libya over throw one dictator. But many of the forces involved are hard line crazy Muslim type. They have a habit of gaining power. And they dislike the west. I am not say libya will turn in to terrorist haven but it is a possibility.
Actually - then who the h... are "you" ??? There was numerous nations who supported the mujahedin and/or worked against the soviets including many asian nations. And what exactly did you have in mind regarding what "we" should have done to "them". The mujahedin including the northern alliance were not children and should take responsibility for their own actions and INactions. The fact that the Taliban could take over was quite simply a complex result of a lot of different forces working in different directions. One of which is the fact that the Pakistani have and still support many fundametalist moslem terrorist organizations including Al Queda - because that gives them a weapon to use against the Indians ... !

So if you want to discuss that, then we could do so. But is has got absolutely NOTHING in common with the siatuation in Libya where a popular revolution overturned a despotic dictator whoi in the end got what he deserved.

And you have to quantify what you mean by "crazy muslim type", because the fact that the libyans are predominately moslem does not by definition mean that they will start making IED´s ... and against whom should thay ???

IF and I say IF libya turns into a "terrorist haven" then they will be burned out ...

There are just too many ifs and maybes in what you write ...
Last edited by nick-bang on Oct 31 2011, edited 1 time in total.

SoB
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 734
Joined: Sep 19 2007
Location: south of the banna rebublic

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#56 Post by SoB » Oct 30 2011

Western forces support a rebellion in a Muslim country to remove the current government. In Afghanistan they then left them there own. The taliban took over and the rest is history.

The reasons there are so many IF's and maybes is simply. We do not know what will happen maybe they will turn in to a lovely place a new friend to the west. Maybe the next big terrorist plot will come from them. No body knows and not know is the problem.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


CPO Mzinyati

nick-bang
Colonel
Posts: 348
Joined: Sep 07 2010
Human: Yes
Location: A dark and ominous room - only illuminated by the eerie light of a computerscreen

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#57 Post by nick-bang » Oct 31 2011

SoB wrote:Western forces support a rebellion in a Muslim country to remove the current government. In Afghanistan they then left them there own. The taliban took over and the rest is history.

The reasons there are so many IF's and maybes is simply. We do not know what will happen maybe they will turn in to a lovely place a new friend to the west. Maybe the next big terrorist plot will come from them. No body knows and not know is the problem.
This is fast approaching the point where it makes no sense to discuss it anymore.

Ok - lets get a few facts straight:

1) Who gives a flying f... if they are moslem - that is neither here nor there and have nothing to do with the fact that the dictator in Libya was a mad dog ! Who now got the treatment reserved for a mad dog. I really and honestly cant see what their religion has got to do with anything at all. Nobody is waging a war of religion here !
As far as I am concerned then the world did the libyans a favor by negating the rabid dog and his henchmens military advantage. Not because they fought against a muslim (they are moslem themselves ... !) but because they fought against a worthless bastard that killed thousands of men, women and children in cold blood.
The world is by any definition a better place now that he and most of his vile spawn lies dead and rotting in the ground - if you will pardon my french.

2) Afghanistan is a very remote place by any definition whos primary call to fame is a) that there have never been peace there, b) that the country in many respects aside from a few modern amenities and cars basically have not changed for hundreds of years. Leaving that aside and from a realpolitik viewpoint then Afghanistan is from an international perspective basically worthless (no insult intended against neither country or inhabitants), as they have no infrastructure, no domestic market, no natural ressources, no exports (aside from opium/heroin).
Hence the only reason anyone wnats to intervene is to stop the afghans from supporting terrorists and exporting too many drugs.

In short the world was NEVER actually there - there is a huge difference between clandestinly support a guerilla movement and using the full military might of the international community.

3) Its not that hard actually to predict what will happen: There will be something similar but not quite a democracy. A country that to some extent will base their laws on sharia but probably without taking in the most silly parts of sharia: like stoning, chopping off limbs as a part of crime prevention, the female dresscode etc.
Also it will feature some of the tribal structures that the former dictator used like a puppeteer - dividing and concuering...

SoB
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 734
Joined: Sep 19 2007
Location: south of the banna rebublic

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#58 Post by SoB » Oct 31 2011

1) Who gives a flying f... if they are moslem - that is neither here nor there and have nothing to do with the fact that the dictator in Libya was a mad dog ! Who now got the treatment reserved for a mad dog. I really and honestly cant see what their religion has got to do with anything at all. Nobody is waging a war of religion here !
As far as I am concerned then the world did the libyans a favor by negating the rabid dog and his henchmens military advantage. Not because they fought against a muslim (they are moslem themselves ... !) but because they fought against a worthless bastard that killed thousands of men, women and children in cold blood.
The world is by any definition a better place now that he and most of his vile spawn lies dead and rotting in the ground - if you will pardon my french.
Tell the a multitude of Muslim terrorist that this is not a religious war.

[/quote]3) Its not that hard actually to predict what will happen: There will be something similar but not quite a democracy. A country that to some extent will base their laws on sharia but probably without taking in the most silly parts of sharia: like stoning, chopping off limbs as a part of crime prevention, the female dresscode etc.
Also it will feature some of the tribal structures that the former dictator used like a puppeteer - dividing and concuering..[/quote]

But you for got about the part that retribution killing have started. And communism is similar to democracy there are votes and elections. Either you have democracy or not no middle ground.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


CPO Mzinyati

nick-bang
Colonel
Posts: 348
Joined: Sep 07 2010
Human: Yes
Location: A dark and ominous room - only illuminated by the eerie light of a computerscreen

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#59 Post by nick-bang » Nov 01 2011

"Tell the a multitude of Muslim terrorist that this is not a religious war. "

Against Whom exactly ???
Anyway who cares what they think anyway - they dont need an excuse to blow up a schoolbus...

"But you for got about the part that retribution killing have started. And communism is similar to democracy there are votes and elections. Either you have democracy or not no middle ground."

?? What ??

I didnt forget it - I didnt mention it, and what has that got do with anything. And what is your documentation for those killings exactly - aside from Gadaffi himself?

"communism is similar to democracy there are votes and elections"

No offense: but have you been smoking something not quite legal? You cant be serious... please tell me its a joke right ??
Every and I mean EVERY "communist" or "socialist" state have been a dictatorship without the most basic of human and civil rights. This obviously and clearly means that there have never ever been free or fair elections in a any communist, socialist, fascist or nationalSOCIALISTIC state. At all. Anywhere.

I hope I misunderstood you. If not then this discussion is over for my part.

number47
General
Posts: 2651
Joined: Sep 15 2011
Human: Yes
Location: X:913 Y:185

Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

#60 Post by number47 » Nov 03 2011

nick-bang wrote:...Every and I mean EVERY "communist" or "socialist" state have been a dictatorship without the most basic of human and civil rights...

As a person that lived in communist/socialist state, lived through a bloody war that led to a transition of my country to democracy, I can agree to most you said against that kind of regime but the line I singled out is, and please don't be offended, totaly and utterly BS. I am only replaying to your post because of the underlined word that you emphasised so much as it is not true or I misunderstood you (in which case I sincerly appologize). With all the lack of democracy, free market and "freedom of speech" we did have free education, free medical care, social assistance...so I wonder what would you consider to be "most basic human rights"? HUH
Image
"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic Comments”