Libyan Civil War Turnout

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How do you think the Libyan Civil War will end?

Pro-Gaddafi victory
3
9%
Pro-Gaddafi victory, Gaddafi will make consessions to democracy
0
No votes
Death of Gaddafi and therefor end of conflict
4
12%
Coalition occupation, end of conflict, democracy
4
12%
Coalition occupation, start of a guerilla/terrorist war
5
15%
Coalition air strikes will force gaddafi to lose
1
3%
Anti-gaddafi victory, but I don't still think democracy will prevail
10
29%
Anti-gaddafi victory
7
21%
None of these
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34
Gurc
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Gurc »

"Western democracies(aspecially north europe, mediterranean are not good either) have earned their current status by social evolution triggered by industrilization. Current social reforms (in Turkey) are just done because the capital owners of the country want to join European Union and EU dictates these reforms. It has nothing to do with the peoples ideas, no-one really rebelled or fought for these ideas. "

I meant current social reforms in Turkey, I wrote less than I should have. "Capital owners"= Businessman who own the private industry and the TV media (most is owned by a single group, Dogan Group). I tried to tell that current democracy of Europe was created by ideas of people and their own social dynamics. In Turkey causes are different.
nick-bang wrote:Turkey USED to be a shining example of democracy and liverty in a region where that concept is utterly alien.
Turkey has never lived a real democracy. Mustafa Kemal westernized the country(universal suffrage,secular education and government, industry, use of latin alphabet, solar calendar etc.) These were done because of his vision, not the people's will. He was supported while doing these because he was the commander and the leader who took our core lands back from invaders. The majority did not conform his revolutions but they did not oppose because they loved him. In his time there was only one party in Turkey which was lead by him (today some people argue that he was a dictator for installing democracy against people's will). He tried to make multi-party system so he asked one of his friends to make an opposing party. This second party did not embrace idea of democracy and tried to bring Sultanate system back, so it was shut down by court. After Mustafa Kemal's death multi-party system was installed. Religious majority tried to remove the secular system multiple times and they were stopped by military coups for protecting Mustafa Kemal's revolutions. Coups, of course, stopped democracy and its improvement. I do not know when Turkey looked like having a true democracy from outside.
nick-bang wrote: "Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover." I want facts and proof of that statement - otherwise its just your OPINION - which you are completely entitled to. But that does not make it true...
I believe that the social attitude in Middle-east about disrespecting rights of individuals is the same. Party that will be elected in Egypt (probably Muslim Brothers) will install sharia and people of the country will approve this (it could be another opressive system). People believe that dictatorship of the majority is democracy. People will say muslims are the majority and majority wants sharia so making laws extracted from Quran is democracy. Freedom of individuals and minorities will not be protected after the so-called democtaric revolution. I anticipate more limitations on woman's lives. Their first test of the new government will be the judgement of Mobarak. We'll see if there will be a judgement respecting the human rights. Some news suggest the opposite but news may be wrong/sided. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/02 ... -in-egypt/
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... genda.html. Muslin Broherhood have a long history about sharia beginning from its foundation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood (I had heard about it elsewhere and wikipedia confirms)

People in Turkey are not really interested in democracy/freedom of speech. Last month a group of students were taken into custody by the police because they spoke against Islam, reason for this action told as : insulting national values and identity. Only a small group of writers spoke about this event and people did not think what police did was wrong because the ones taken into custody were "infidels". I can not imagine what would happen to the makers of a Turkish version of the cartoon South Park.
nick-bang wrote: Dont understand what you are talking about regarding the media - that must be a turkish thing. In the rest of europe and especially northern europe, then the media will crucify any politician they can.
For example media was blackmailed by the government using its tax debt. Government fined Dogan Group for 3.8 billion liras(2-2.5 billion dollars,I do not remember currency rate at that time) for tax debt when it made news criticizing the government. Their war ended when government allowed the Dogan group make an oil refinery. Their war had started after another refinery was sold to a government's supporter company where son of the prime minister is an administrator (probably a shareholder, i have no info on that). The tax fine was also cancelled!. In Turkey media does not crucify the government as long as it gets its share in other ways.

One of the most popular (maybe the most) newspaper is also owned by Dogan Group. When their editor criticised the government, the PM said: "The journalist's wage is given by the newspaper's owner, he should control the words written by his workers." After this the editor was forced to resign and no-one in the media protested the government for disrespecting freedom of the press. I can not see how there can be democracy when no one can talk against the government. What bothers me most is that there has been no protests by people. People do not even care about their own right to get news. If the social structure in Egypt is like it is in Turkey, I suspect that there will be freedom in the following decades. The reason behind Arab-Rebellions is that they are fed up with their current rulers and they could at last talk about that in internet. So social structure is like how it was at the age enlightment; internet being the coffee houses of that time.

Reason why there can not be democracy:
Under the Ottoman rule; coffee and wine houses were banned because rebelllion against sultan was talked in these places. History book still writes ban was applied because consumption of wine/coffee are considered sin. Nothing is taught to the public about the ban's negative impact on evolution of idea and social structure. Jasmine Revolution might result in a country which was not intentioned at the beginning. (just like French revolution destroyed clergy but Napoleon's empire remade it). Hopefully internet will allow social evolution that Midle-East had missed in 17th century. Maybe decades or a century later there can be a true democracy is the region.
nick-bang wrote:No man is an island - and no economy is completely independent of the outside world."
I do not say a country should be isolated but its international trade should be controlled/limited. Fee trade between a developed country and an underdeveloped country stops the industrial development of the latter. When companies in Turkey develop and get a considerable market share, foreign companies drop their prices very low and kill these companies. Someone would argue that this is better for people's benefits for they get products for lower price but that does not happen. As soon as local industry is killed prices go up to their old values so the only result is that people are left unemployed. Too much import also puts public and government into big debt. Greece has to sell its belongings to foreigners because they consumed much more than they produced. A good government should make policies that balances imports and exports, thus should not fall into the current situation of Greece. I do not believe governments that will be elected will care about the future of their people's economy in this regard.
The Khan
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by The Khan »

Gurc wrote:"Western democracies(aspecially north europe, mediterranean are not good either) have earned their current status by social evolution triggered by industrilization. Current social reforms (in Turkey) are just done because the capital owners of the country want to join European Union and EU dictates these reforms. It has nothing to do with the peoples ideas, no-one really rebelled or fought for these ideas. "

I meant current social reforms in Turkey, I wrote less than I should have. "Capital owners"= Businessman who own the private industry and the TV media (most is owned by a single group, Dogan Group). I tried to tell that current democracy of Europe was created by ideas of people and their own social dynamics. In Turkey causes are different.
nick-bang wrote:Turkey USED to be a shining example of democracy and liverty in a region where that concept is utterly alien.
Turkey has never lived a real democracy. Mustafa Kemal westernized the country(universal suffrage,secular education and government, industry, use of latin alphabet, solar calendar etc.) These were done because of his vision, not the people's will. He was supported while doing these because he was the commander and the leader who took our core lands back from invaders. The majority did not conform his revolutions but they did not oppose because they loved him. In his time there was only one party in Turkey which was lead by him (today some people argue that he was a dictator for installing democracy against people's will). He tried to make multi-party system so he asked one of his friends to make an opposing party. This second party did not embrace idea of democracy and tried to bring Sultanate system back, so it was shut down by court. After Mustafa Kemal's death multi-party system was installed. Religious majority tried to remove the secular system multiple times and they were stopped by military coups for protecting Mustafa Kemal's revolutions. Coups, of course, stopped democracy and its improvement. I do not know when Turkey looked like having a true democracy from outside.
nick-bang wrote: "Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover." I want facts and proof of that statement - otherwise its just your OPINION - which you are completely entitled to. But that does not make it true...
I believe that the social attitude in Middle-east about disrespecting rights of individuals is the same. Party that will be elected in Egypt (probably Muslim Brothers) will install sharia and people of the country will approve this (it could be another opressive system). People believe that dictatorship of the majority is democracy. People will say muslims are the majority and majority wants sharia so making laws extracted from Quran is democracy. Freedom of individuals and minorities will not be protected after the so-called democtaric revolution. I anticipate more limitations on woman's lives. Their first test of the new government will be the judgement of Mobarak. We'll see if there will be a judgement respecting the human rights. Some news suggest the opposite but news may be wrong/sided. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/02 ... -in-egypt/
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... genda.html. Muslin Broherhood have a long history about sharia beginning from its foundation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood (I had heard about it elsewhere and wikipedia confirms)

People in Turkey are not really interested in democracy/freedom of speech. Last month a group of students were taken into custody by the police because they spoke against Islam, reason for this action told as : insulting national values and identity. Only a small group of writers spoke about this event and people did not think what police did was wrong because the ones taken into custody were "infidels". I can not imagine what would happen to the makers of a Turkish version of the cartoon South Park.
nick-bang wrote: Dont understand what you are talking about regarding the media - that must be a turkish thing. In the rest of europe and especially northern europe, then the media will crucify any politician they can.
For example media was blackmailed by the government using its tax debt. Government fined Dogan Group for 3.8 billion liras(2-2.5 billion dollars,I do not remember currency rate at that time) for tax debt when it made news criticizing the government. Their war ended when government allowed the Dogan group make an oil refinery. Their war had started after another refinery was sold to a government's supporter company where son of the prime minister is an administrator (probably a shareholder, i have no info on that). The tax fine was also cancelled!. In Turkey media does not crucify the government as long as it gets its share in other ways.

One of the most popular (maybe the most) newspaper is also owned by Dogan Group. When their editor criticised the government, the PM said: "The journalist's wage is given by the newspaper's owner, he should control the words written by his workers." After this the editor was forced to resign and no-one in the media protested the government for disrespecting freedom of the press. I can not see how there can be democracy when no one can talk against the government. What bothers me most is that there has been no protests by people. People do not even care about their own right to get news. If the social structure in Egypt is like it is in Turkey, I suspect that there will be freedom in the following decades. The reason behind Arab-Rebellions is that they are fed up with their current rulers and they could at last talk about that in internet. So social structure is like how it was at the age enlightment; internet being the coffee houses of that time.

Reason why there can not be democracy:
Under the Ottoman rule; coffee and wine houses were banned because rebelllion against sultan was talked in these places. History book still writes ban was applied because consumption of wine/coffee are considered sin. Nothing is taught to the public about the ban's negative impact on evolution of idea and social structure. Jasmine Revolution might result in a country which was not intentioned at the beginning. (just like French revolution destroyed clergy but Napoleon's empire remade it). Hopefully internet will allow social evolution that Midle-East had missed in 17th century. Maybe decades or a century later there can be a true democracy is the region.
nick-bang wrote:No man is an island - and no economy is completely independent of the outside world."
I do not say a country should be isolated but its international trade should be controlled/limited. Fee trade between a developed country and an underdeveloped country stops the industrial development of the latter. When companies in Turkey develop and get a considerable market share, foreign companies drop their prices very low and kill these companies. Someone would argue that this is better for people's benefits for they get products for lower price but that does not happen. As soon as local industry is killed prices go up to their old values so the only result is that people are left unemployed. Too much import also puts public and government into big debt. Greece has to sell its belongings to foreigners because they consumed much more than they produced. A good government should make policies that balances imports and exports, thus should not fall into the current situation of Greece. I do not believe governments that will be elected will care about the future of their people's economy in this regard.
Just as he said.

You Turkish Gurc?
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Hullu Hevonen
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

If true, embarrassing for the rebels.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/20 ... 36279.html
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Gurc
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Gurc »

The Khan wrote: You Turkish Gurc?
Yes I am :).

I want people around the world to know what their news tells them is wrong about Middle East. No real democracy is coming in near future. (A very short version of previous post).

I heard very interestig rumours. Military operation in Syria will be in February or a few months after that. Currently Muslim Brotherhood (of Syria) has no one capable of running Syria. Next president of Syria is currently being trained in a camp in Antalya by USA agents. A professor specialized on Syria said so in SkyTurk news, he named a few andidates but I forgot their names.

Now I wonder if the khaliphate will be restored. My guess it will be in Turkey or Egypt. Last title holder was Turkish Sultan but his children live in Egypt. The can give the title to the ruler of Egypt or leader of Muslim brothers. Muslim brothers have long been trying to restore khaliphate so I suppose they would be more than happy to do so.
Last edited by Gurc on Aug 26 2011, edited 1 time in total.
The Khan
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by The Khan »

Now I wonder if the khaliphate will be restored.
Yavaş. Take it easy.

Not as much as that, but middle east will have a lumpen democracy, a shadow-guided tyranny by majority.
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by nick-bang »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:If true, embarrassing for the rebels.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/20 ... 36279.html
Not as embarrasing as when they tried to declare the mad dogs son dead - and he then stopped a journalist to say that he as indeed alive and well.

Oh ... and regarding your other question: then a "Rabid dog" is a dog with Rabies - not a "rabbit dog" (a hunting dog specialising in fluffy bunnies ?) :P

You wrote something about USA should have stayed out completely - they TRIED but through NATO agreements couldnt pull out to start with. But they did as soon as they were able.

Im sorry If I offended you with the comment about France or Italy or whatever hurt you in that sentence - my only defence is that it is the truth (and probably not the most ugly parts of the truts). Anyway you are finnish: I thought you were the toughest of us scandinavians, and not just because you have defeated the russians more times than I can remember?
At any rate then I would just say that I like finns, and allthough we cant agree on everything then its nice discussing with you.

Even if I cant make you see reason (ie. from my perspective :lol: ) every time, then I would still fight for your right to say it. Just like my grandfather did in both the winter war and continuation war (he was swedish).

SISU forever...
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by nick-bang »

Gurc wrote: I meant current social reforms in Turkey, I wrote less than I should have. "Capital owners"= Businessman who own the private industry and the TV media (most is owned by a single group, Dogan Group). I tried to tell that current democracy of Europe was created by ideas of people and their own social dynamics. In Turkey causes are different.

I still dont get what you mean: try being more specific and using real-life examples from Turkey, as I can see its Turkey and not europe we are discussing. Theory can be nice in the university but its dangerous to try and make reality fir Theory instead of the other way around ...

These were done because of his vision, not the people's will. He was supported while doing these because he was the commander and the leader who took our core lands back from invaders.
What do you mean - Turkey was not occupied after WW2. It has some of its areas removed - but do you mean that syria, israel/palestine etc are Turkish ???

The majority did not conform his revolutions but they did not oppose because they loved him. In his time there was only one party in Turkey which was lead by him (today some people argue that he was a dictator for installing democracy against people's will). He tried to make multi-party system so he asked one of his friends to make an opposing party. This second party did not embrace idea of democracy and tried to bring Sultanate system back, so it was shut down by court. After Mustafa Kemal's death multi-party system was installed. Religious majority tried to remove the secular system multiple times and they were stopped by military coups for protecting Mustafa Kemal's revolutions. Coups, of course, stopped democracy and its improvement. I do not know when Turkey looked like having a true democracy from outside.
Actually, then a democracy by definition will always be INcompatible with ANY religion. Which is why ALL real democracies have either abolished of very severely limited then influence of religious parties - no matter what religion.
nick-bang wrote: "Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover." I want facts and proof of that statement - otherwise its just your OPINION - which you are completely entitled to. But that does not make it true...
I believe that the social attitude in Middle-east about disrespecting rights of individuals is the same. Party that will be elected in Egypt (probably Muslim Brothers) will install sharia and people of the country will approve this (it could be another opressive system). People believe that dictatorship of the majority is democracy. People will say muslims are the majority and majority wants sharia so making laws extracted from Quran is democracy.
WHO are "people" - you STILL extrapolate YOUR ideas and try to make them into universal truths. Well - they are not ...
They are just circular arguments and thus prove nothing


People in Turkey are not really interested in democracy/freedom of speech. Last month a group of students were taken into custody by the police because they spoke against Islam, reason for this action told as : insulting national values and identity. Only a small group of writers spoke about this event and people did not think what police did was wrong because the ones taken into custody were "infidels". I can not imagine what would happen to the makers of a Turkish version of the cartoon South Park.
Obviously A LOT of people want it. Just like they do in Syria, Iran etc. But because of the current anti-democratic religious president in Turkey they are suppressed, threatened, limited and eliminated.
Thus ensuring Turkey will never ever be a part of EU - which is probably what Erdogan really wants. Because then he can turn Turkey further towards Iran and remove even more political and democratic rights.
Point of example being the fact that him and the rest of the religious ... individuals ... had to give up their plan of fitting a filter that would block any computer in Turkey from anything THEY didnt like. Massive protest meant Erdogan shamefully had to stick his tail between his legs and concede defeat...

nick-bang wrote: Dont understand what you are talking about regarding the media - that must be a turkish thing. In the rest of europe and especially northern europe, then the media will crucify any politician they can.
For example media was blackmailed by the government using its tax debt. Government fined Dogan Group for 3.8 billion liras(2-2.5 billion dollars,I do not remember currency rate at that time) for tax debt when it made news criticizing the government. Their war ended when government allowed the Dogan group make an oil refinery. Their war had started after another refinery was sold to a government's supporter company where son of the prime minister is an administrator (probably a shareholder, i have no info on that). The tax fine was also cancelled!. In Turkey media does not crucify the government as long as it gets its share in other ways.

One of the most popular (maybe the most) newspaper is also owned by Dogan Group. When their editor criticised the government, the PM said: "The journalist's wage is given by the newspaper's owner, he should control the words written by his workers." After this the editor was forced to resign and no-one in the media protested the government for disrespecting freedom of the press. I can not see how there can be democracy when no one can talk against the government. What bothers me most is that there has been no protests by people. People do not even care about their own right to get news. If the social structure in Egypt is like it is in Turkey, I suspect that there will be freedom in the following decades. The reason behind Arab-Rebellions is that they are fed up with their current rulers and they could at last talk about that in internet. So social structure is like how it was at the age enlightment; internet being the coffee houses of that time.

Reason why there can not be democracy:
Under the Ottoman rule; coffee and wine houses were banned because rebelllion against sultan was talked in these places. History book still writes ban was applied because consumption of wine/coffee are considered sin. Nothing is taught to the public about the ban's negative impact on evolution of idea and social structure. Jasmine Revolution might result in a country which was not intentioned at the beginning. (just like French revolution destroyed clergy but Napoleon's empire remade it). Hopefully internet will allow social evolution that Midle-East had missed in 17th century. Maybe decades or a century later there can be a true democracy is the region.


AS i wrote ... a TURKISH thing ...

nick-bang wrote:No man is an island - and no economy is completely independent of the outside world."
I do not say a country should be isolated but its international trade should be controlled/limited.

NONSENSE ... even if we say that what you describe was POSSIBLE (which its not), then a) WHO should do it, WHY, HOW and WHEN should they do it? b) There already exists many international organizations which regulate international trade - and there have been so for a LONG time (UN, GATT, G8, WTO etc.). So for that reason alone, Then I dont understand what you write?

Fee trade between a developed country and an underdeveloped country stops the industrial development of the latter. When companies in Turkey develop and get a considerable market share, foreign companies drop their prices very low and kill these companies.

And you read that where - Das Kapital didnt even make sense when it was written in 1867-1894, and then following years have only made it MORE anachronistic, irrational, delusional and anit-humanitarian.
The regulation of domestic prices are governed by MANY factors - none of which you mention. If you want a lesson in Macro and Micro economics then I would be happy to comply. But a forum such as this is not a very good media for that. Try reading a recognized generalized book on the subject, like Blanchards "Macroeconomics", Frank/Bernankes "Principles of economics", Salvatores "Managerial economics in a global economy" or something similar...


Someone would argue that this is better for people's benefits for they get products for lower price but that does not happen. As soon as local industry is killed prices go up to their old values so the only result is that people are left unemployed. Too much import also puts public and government into big debt. Greece has to sell its belongings to foreigners because they consumed much more than they produced. A good government should make policies that balances imports and exports, thus should not fall into the current situation of Greece. I do not believe governments that will be elected will care about the future of their people's economy in this regard.

See my comment above ...
I am not sure what it is you wanted to debate - perhaps you can elaborate on that please ?
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Gurc »

What I said is shortly: A true democracy is middle-east & north africa can not exist because of the social structure. Arab-Spring will result in countries with parliamentary syatem that holds elections but these countries will not have democracy with civil rights and human rights. Main reson is that people do not want to really have these developments. They will vote for a government that will pass sharia laws because they are "good muslims with strong belief".
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by nick-bang »

Gurc wrote:What I said is shortly: A true democracy is middle-east & north africa can not exist because of the social structure. Arab-Spring will result in countries with parliamentary syatem that holds elections but these countries will not have democracy with civil rights and human rights. Main reson is that people do not want to really have these developments. They will vote for a government that will pass sharia laws because they are "good muslims with strong belief".
So what you are sying is basically that no moslem nation is ready for anything but a dictatorship (like Turkey used to be), if you want to assure the most basic of human and democratic rights and privileges ?
This includes amongst other thing s all the thing s I wrote above ie. a free press and internet, independent Laborunions, the right to say and write what you will ESPECIALLY if it offends somebody else (like the muhammed drawings), a free working environment (including for women), no arbitrary or medieval use of courts including no primitive and mediaval ways of punishment (like amputation and stoning), no persecution of other religions (like christians AND jews in most arab nations)

If what you say is true then I believe a REAL religious war is inevitable, as despotic and medieval regimes like the ones you describe will not be content to poison their own countries, but will week a worldwide hegemony.

Now THERE is a scary thought... A djihad which at some point would foster a crusade and thus creating a cycle of violence like we saw hundreds of years ago...
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

nick-bang wrote:
Hullu Hevonen wrote:If true, embarrassing for the rebels.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/20 ... 36279.html
Not as embarrasing as when they tried to declare the mad dogs son dead - and he then stopped a journalist to say that he as indeed alive and well.

Oh ... and regarding your other question: then a "Rabid dog" is a dog with Rabies - not a "rabbit dog" (a hunting dog specialising in fluffy bunnies ?) :P

You wrote something about USA should have stayed out completely - they TRIED but through NATO agreements couldnt pull out to start with. But they did as soon as they were able.

Im sorry If I offended you with the comment about France or Italy or whatever hurt you in that sentence - my only defence is that it is the truth (and probably not the most ugly parts of the truts). Anyway you are finnish: I thought you were the toughest of us scandinavians, and not just because you have defeated the russians more times than I can remember?
At any rate then I would just say that I like finns, and allthough we cant agree on everything then its nice discussing with you.

Even if I cant make you see reason (ie. from my perspective :lol: ) every time, then I would still fight for your right to say it. Just like my grandfather did in both the winter war and continuation war (he was swedish).

SISU forever...
huh... :o isn't NATO a defensive alliance, i'm not offended :wink: and Finland was not allowed into Scandinavia :P , so we invented our own "Fennoscandia"(though the danes got kicked) :lol: . Swedish? I'm 'native' in the language (Finlandswedish). As for my ethnicity, I don't know, but most likely Finnish, there is not documentation of people's ethnicities here.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on the Libyan question, anyways, we'll see soon enough how this thing ends and the aftermath unravels.
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Gurc »

nick-bang wrote:What do you mean - Turkey was not occupied after WW2. It has some of its areas removed - but do you mean that syria, israel/palestine etc are Turkish ???
Turkey was invaded after WW1 in 1920s. Without fighting back, Turkey would be 1/3 of what it is now; leaving most of Turkish speaking population in other countries's land.

Here the topic moves to Economics, not Libya:
nick-bang wrote: NONSENSE ... even if we say that what you describe was POSSIBLE (which its not), then a) WHO should do it, WHY, HOW and WHEN should they do it? b) There already exists many international organizations which regulate international trade - and there have been so for a LONG time (UN, GATT, G8, WTO etc.). So for that reason alone, Then I dont understand what you write?
Government should do it. If a product is produced locally and an imported product threats the local business tax on the imported good should be increased. Current government got a "+1" from me for regulating imported meat price. Before the last regulations, imported meat was banned and local meat supply was not sufficient.Government allowed imported meat, so prices did not skyrocket because of lack of supply. Tax on imported meat is adjusted so that local business does not die either, imported meat price is the same as local meat price.
About WTO etc: I do NOT trust foreigners to regulate international trade for my benefits. China dried Europe and USA out of money(not dried but put into big debt) by keeping value of RMB low intentionally for causing exports. I heard no one crying out what China does is wrong for International trade. Unemployment in Spain is like 20%. I find government of Spain very incompetent, too. Government may decrease spending so there will be even more unemployment. This is why I believe that opening a market that can not compete is just murder.
One reason I am against Turkey joining EU is this economic issue. Turkey is worse than Greece. If Turkey had joined(or was allowed) EU, we would have bankrupt much before than Greece. Our own currency, whose inflation and value we control keeps our imports in control. Even now imports are more than twice the amount of exports.
Same criticism may come here about me not having read an economics book. Me reading one in a close time is unlikely so I do not know if my opinion will change.
nick-bang wrote:The regulation of domestic prices are governed by MANY factors
My criticism about the national governments was that they would not regulate the prices to protect their own companies. I explained how that can be done by the meat example. Regulation of the consumer products that require technology and aesthetics are much more trickier.

No more Libya below; more on economics of Turkey(if you say enough about Turkey you are excused from reading :) ):
The real problem about the Turkey's opening to free market is that Turkey did not have real free trade in itself. Industry was developed on areas that government wanted. All you needed to become a businessman was to have "friends" in the capital. I am not against free trade. I can see how much USA improved itself by allowing the companies find and fill consumer's needs. Turkish industry does not yet have the experience about innovation and finding consumers' needs.
There is the human part, too.In Turkey, students are only guided to become engineers, doctors and social servants that work for companies or the government. Students are not encouraged to do entrepreneurship and innovation which are very important in free trade (for creating new demands and improving social life). I had not heard about investors until the last year of university. I had the idea thanks to a friend who was in administration department and invited me to their entrepreneurship lessons. There were no government funds for innovation ideas until 3 years ago. Government is 20 years late for creating the human infrastructure for a competitive market. As a conclusion, human resource of the country is not ready for competitive business yet. No engineer in the country has ever tried to develop ground-breaking products like automobile,computer,cell-phone or air-plane. There has only been some "innovators" without education who have into the trap of perpetual motion.

For this reason, Turkey should be exposed to international market in a controlled manner with local free trade (all developing countries should do that). In this way companies can adopt to free trade without getting destroyed.
Hullu Hevonen
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

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nick-bang
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by nick-bang »

Game Over Mr. Ghadaffi ...

Your death leaves the world a better place than when you lived !

Like I predicted, then he was Ceaușescu´ed ...

Now we shall see what the future will bring - and soon I expect.
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by SoB »

Iy may take along time for the effects of his death to take place. Libay is very tribal. We may see it descend in to iraq style sectarian war minus the Americans to bring the order.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


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nick-bang
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Re: Libyan Civil War Turnout

Post by nick-bang »

SoB wrote:Iy may take along time for the effects of his death to take place. Libay is very tribal. We may see it descend in to iraq style sectarian war minus the Americans to bring the order.
True but if we skip the political correct BS and cut to Real Politik, then the Libyans have the advantage of being much closer to europe.

Hence they have a far greater chance of having the full weight of the EU helping them, as europeans dont really care about arabs in the middle east at all but are very concerned about political turmoil and refugees in their very back yard. Especially the Italians because of many historical ties and their need for Libyan oil and the French because France finally have found a cause where somebody actually gives a damn what they think and say in an international context ...

The truth is not very pretty or elegant but there you have it ...
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