I meant current social reforms in Turkey, I wrote less than I should have. "Capital owners"= Businessman who own the private industry and the TV media (most is owned by a single group, Dogan Group). I tried to tell that current democracy of Europe was created by ideas of people and their own social dynamics. In Turkey causes are different.
Turkey has never lived a real democracy. Mustafa Kemal westernized the country(universal suffrage,secular education and government, industry, use of latin alphabet, solar calendar etc.) These were done because of his vision, not the people's will. He was supported while doing these because he was the commander and the leader who took our core lands back from invaders. The majority did not conform his revolutions but they did not oppose because they loved him. In his time there was only one party in Turkey which was lead by him (today some people argue that he was a dictator for installing democracy against people's will). He tried to make multi-party system so he asked one of his friends to make an opposing party. This second party did not embrace idea of democracy and tried to bring Sultanate system back, so it was shut down by court. After Mustafa Kemal's death multi-party system was installed. Religious majority tried to remove the secular system multiple times and they were stopped by military coups for protecting Mustafa Kemal's revolutions. Coups, of course, stopped democracy and its improvement. I do not know when Turkey looked like having a true democracy from outside.nick-bang wrote:Turkey USED to be a shining example of democracy and liverty in a region where that concept is utterly alien.
I believe that the social attitude in Middle-east about disrespecting rights of individuals is the same. Party that will be elected in Egypt (probably Muslim Brothers) will install sharia and people of the country will approve this (it could be another opressive system). People believe that dictatorship of the majority is democracy. People will say muslims are the majority and majority wants sharia so making laws extracted from Quran is democracy. Freedom of individuals and minorities will not be protected after the so-called democtaric revolution. I anticipate more limitations on woman's lives. Their first test of the new government will be the judgement of Mobarak. We'll see if there will be a judgement respecting the human rights. Some news suggest the opposite but news may be wrong/sided. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/02 ... -in-egypt/nick-bang wrote: "Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover." I want facts and proof of that statement - otherwise its just your OPINION - which you are completely entitled to. But that does not make it true...
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... genda.html. Muslin Broherhood have a long history about sharia beginning from its foundation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood (I had heard about it elsewhere and wikipedia confirms)
People in Turkey are not really interested in democracy/freedom of speech. Last month a group of students were taken into custody by the police because they spoke against Islam, reason for this action told as : insulting national values and identity. Only a small group of writers spoke about this event and people did not think what police did was wrong because the ones taken into custody were "infidels". I can not imagine what would happen to the makers of a Turkish version of the cartoon South Park.
For example media was blackmailed by the government using its tax debt. Government fined Dogan Group for 3.8 billion liras(2-2.5 billion dollars,I do not remember currency rate at that time) for tax debt when it made news criticizing the government. Their war ended when government allowed the Dogan group make an oil refinery. Their war had started after another refinery was sold to a government's supporter company where son of the prime minister is an administrator (probably a shareholder, i have no info on that). The tax fine was also cancelled!. In Turkey media does not crucify the government as long as it gets its share in other ways.nick-bang wrote: Dont understand what you are talking about regarding the media - that must be a turkish thing. In the rest of europe and especially northern europe, then the media will crucify any politician they can.
One of the most popular (maybe the most) newspaper is also owned by Dogan Group. When their editor criticised the government, the PM said: "The journalist's wage is given by the newspaper's owner, he should control the words written by his workers." After this the editor was forced to resign and no-one in the media protested the government for disrespecting freedom of the press. I can not see how there can be democracy when no one can talk against the government. What bothers me most is that there has been no protests by people. People do not even care about their own right to get news. If the social structure in Egypt is like it is in Turkey, I suspect that there will be freedom in the following decades. The reason behind Arab-Rebellions is that they are fed up with their current rulers and they could at last talk about that in internet. So social structure is like how it was at the age enlightment; internet being the coffee houses of that time.
Reason why there can not be democracy:
Under the Ottoman rule; coffee and wine houses were banned because rebelllion against sultan was talked in these places. History book still writes ban was applied because consumption of wine/coffee are considered sin. Nothing is taught to the public about the ban's negative impact on evolution of idea and social structure. Jasmine Revolution might result in a country which was not intentioned at the beginning. (just like French revolution destroyed clergy but Napoleon's empire remade it). Hopefully internet will allow social evolution that Midle-East had missed in 17th century. Maybe decades or a century later there can be a true democracy is the region.
I do not say a country should be isolated but its international trade should be controlled/limited. Fee trade between a developed country and an underdeveloped country stops the industrial development of the latter. When companies in Turkey develop and get a considerable market share, foreign companies drop their prices very low and kill these companies. Someone would argue that this is better for people's benefits for they get products for lower price but that does not happen. As soon as local industry is killed prices go up to their old values so the only result is that people are left unemployed. Too much import also puts public and government into big debt. Greece has to sell its belongings to foreigners because they consumed much more than they produced. A good government should make policies that balances imports and exports, thus should not fall into the current situation of Greece. I do not believe governments that will be elected will care about the future of their people's economy in this regard.nick-bang wrote:No man is an island - and no economy is completely independent of the outside world."