Gurc wrote:USA does not care about Libya result directly.Civil war is provoked for givng libyan oil to France. This is though times for NATO. I am in Turkey and I sense that NATO is going to shrink (maybe Turkey can be forced out, after unwillingness to face Iran in favor of USA). No more USSR no more NATO.
As a person I do not believe that democracy will exist in Egypt or Libya, like it does not exist in Turkey. We hold elections but I feel that we choose a dictator not a president. People's opinions are not important. Media(puppet of government after tax blackmail) suggests some unsolvable conflicts about ethnicity, woman rights etc. but no real stuff is talked about education, technology and industry. Western democracies(aspecially north europe, mediterranean are not good either) have earned their current status by social evolution triggered by industrilization. Current social reforms are just done because the capital owners of the country want to join European Union and EU dictates these reforms. It has nothing to do with the peoples ideas, no-one really rebelled or fought for these ideas.
Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover. In Turkey everyone say "human rights" are very important but they say so when it is for their profit. Homosexuals, ethnic minorities,woman rights,etc. only say "human rights" for themselves not for another group. If they really believed in human rights then they would be defending each other but that is not the case. I told this because democracies installed during Arab-Spring will be as empty as "human rights" is in Turkey. USA/Europe will be happy as long as the installed government is a puppet of them.New government will hand over their national resources for a low price and open their market for invasion of foreign companies without caring for the unemployment that free trade will create.
IF you think differently I am open to arguing about these ideas.
I agree to some extent that USA do not care about the Libyan debacle, but why should they - its an european problem first and foremost. And at any rate then USA have done everything they can to stay OUT of the war. So why drag them in now, when they really have a VERY small role. Its France that have been the most aggressive in all the Yasmine revolutions. Furthermore then its actually mostly Italy and Greece that gets their oil from Libya, allthough France gets some.
France therefore is not just in it for the oil - they want to be the new regional superpower which they can be allowed as Germany dont give a flying f..., United kingdom have their plate full in other wars and Italy is busy trying to cover their Mafioso president and growing debt problems.
I really cant see why NATO should shrink, allthough Turkey can pull out if they will. To the rest of europe it seems that their new religious president in Turkey is doing his best to destroy anything that Kemal Atatürk stood for anyway - so why not sever the ties to the rst of europe while he is at it?
As Afghanistan. Iraq and now Libya clearly demonstrates then NATO is the only real framwork for any type of organized international military effort. UN have neither the format, courage, intelligence, framework or testicles to really make any difference (but that is another discussion found elsewhere on this forum), and this most definetely includes stopping a crazy dictator.
Why would any sane person defend the current anti-social, anti-democratic, anti-free spech/press, anti-laborunion, anti-womens rights dictatorship in Iran? That is just silly as Ahmadinejad has demonstrated countless times that he will murder any number of innocents to stay in power. Very much like the Mad Dog Ghadaffi in fact. The fact that Iran is presently "helping" president assad in Syria slaughter his own people is just another example of that.
If Turkey wants to be friends with a rabid dog - then be my guest, but dont be surprised when it turns and bite you...
Turkey USED to be a shining example of democracy and liverty in a region where that concept is utterly alien. But no more it would seem. Egypt and Libya are two VERY different countries. I do believe that we will see some form of government elected democratically in Egypt. Libya is more of a question - it depends on when Ghadaffi and the rest of his family are killed and how - and by whom. Its hard to build a democracy on murder, but on the other hands then sometimes its too dangerous to let somebody go...
Difficult times sometimes provides new solutions, but Libya can go both ways.
Dont understand what you are talking about regarding the media - that must be a turkish thing. In the rest of europe and especially northern europe, then the media will crucify any politician they can.
"Western democracies(aspecially north europe, mediterranean are not good either) have earned their current status by social evolution triggered by industrilization. Current social reforms are just done because the capital owners of the country want to join European Union and EU dictates these reforms. It has nothing to do with the peoples ideas, no-one really rebelled or fought for these ideas. "
Nonsense - that MIGHT make sense in a book. Maybe.
But in real life things are a little more complicated than that. Northern europe is AMONGST other things characterized by a wide NUMBER of democratic institutions: free press, free laborunions that are allowed to fight laborissues, neutral courts, women rights, a general tradition of open and heted democratic debate just to name a few.
I realize however that these are less pronounced in southern europe (no insult intended).
The people of Denmark CHOSE not to be a part of every EU institution (money, police and military) just as Norway have chosen to keep completely out and Sweden have had numoeous consessions and exceptions.
The "capital owners " (and I dont even know what that is supposed to mean), do not dictate what northern europe do, say or think.
18. may 1993 saw huge Riots in Copenhagen where the police fired 117 live rounds into the crowds (NO rubber bullets). So dont tell me than no one fought for these ideas. As seen here:
"Rebels in Egypt say that they did so for democracy but this is just a mask for a takeover." I want facts and proof of that statement - otherwise its just your OPINION - which you are completely entitled to. But that does not make it true...
Judging from what you write, then it really seems that Turkey is under a lot of anti-democratic pressure from within. Obviously then democracy is an ancient institution in scandinavia, and the arab nation shall have to create their own version for their own people with their own choices. But I somehow doubt that the people of Tunesia and Egypt will accept a new dictatorship.
"USA/Europe will be happy as long as the installed government is a puppet of them.New government will hand over their national resources for a low price and open their market for invasion of foreign companies without caring for the unemployment that free trade will create."
Again then those are simply your opinions - which you are entitled to. As it is then both Egypt, Libya and Tunesia will need foreign investments and know-how if they want to use all their ressources. I would just like to point out that Egypt is ALREADY experiencing a HUGE unemployment, this was actually ONE of the reasons for the revolution.
No man is an island - and no economy is completely independent of the outside world. Not even The Mad Dwarfs North Korea.
So its basically a matter of trying to regulate it within the international laws and rules that apply...