ahhhhh, chavez....

[Hullu Hevonen]

Lol, Us ambassador is kicked out

[tkobo]

The shame here is, its a real loss to venezuela.

With chav dead, they will always now be remembered as the country who couldnt throw off a dictator.The country who followed a leader to economic ruin by choice,only to be given a chance to save itself from further ruin due to happenstance.A country in which many will see his death as a reason to continue down the road to ruin,simply because disease has taken away the one that was leading them to it.

Because the country was prevented from hitting "rock bottom" while following chav,by his death, many will forever refuse to acknowledge the harm done.The huge rise in crime,the horrendously large losses of production,the rampant inflation, the huge inability to feed itself or meet its electrical demands,etc...

But hey,that cuban medical care...... that miraculous full recovery and of course his cure he told us all about just last year....and of course,how his cancer was "given to him" by nefarious forces .....

...all thats left,really,is for him to end up in the multi-million dollar tomb he "had built for bolivar"

[Hullu Hevonen]

I would say your a little out of touch with reality, Venezuela's economy is even doing better than Colombia's economy, if you compare by GDP/c. Chavez was elected into office, even Jimi Carter said he thought they where free, iac if he was a 'dictator', he would be prefered over others, because this guy cared about the people and the money, while most only care about ripping of their countrymen. You should take a look at the footage from Venezuela, don't think they saw him as an ruthless dictator, but the opposite, because he actually helped them in one way or another. The same can't be said for US leaders.

In the end, he pulled millions out of poverty(for example: halved the people living under 2$ day), increased the living standard for the poor, provided universal healthcare to the people. I think that out weighs the huge crime, high inflation(Chavez did btw improve the inflation) and corruption et al

[Draken]

Are you sure that you aren't interested in that water front villa in Mars????

[Balthagor]

You're not going to change his mind on Chavez. Keep in mind that Tkobo's going to constantly disagree with Chavez's because he was far left socialist in his policies so Tkobo foresees doom from all his policies though I judge which we are still a bit too close to get full cause and effect. However, there is strong arguments to be made that Tkobo is correct so I disagree when you say he's out of touch. I think it'll be another decade before we can really look back and be sure of long term effects of Chavez vs. "what could have been" but there are some key indicators that paint a bleak picture.

Tkobo, as I recall, has little patience for Carter either. I don't think there is a question of if they "freely" elected Chavez but what back room deals or long term pipe dreams were promised to entice people to put Chavez's name on the ballot.

Consider this;

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/ve.html

While you're correct that their GDP/c is on the rise, that doesn't guarantee an improvement of their situation (despite what playing SR has taught you ). Rising income inequality can easily offset gains in GPD. With inflation, food shortages and housing crisis that does not speak well to the policies Chavez put in place. I'm less convinced this man "cared for the people" and more convinced he "cared for the country", that he was willing to sacrifice a percentage of the people to achieve what he saw has a higher position internationally. FYI, having re-read that, I'd make the same statement about our prime minister. It doesn't make someone evil in and of itself, but I see it as the wrong priority.

BTW, I'd have to confirm this, but I understood that recent inflation decreases were small and that inflation in Ven. is higher now than when Chavez came to power.

[Hullu Hevonen]

The backroom dealing during election times goes for many other democracies in the world and isn't exclusive to authoritarian governments. Chavez "cared for the country" more, when I think about it more thoroughly, though today Venezuela has a better educated population which in the future might open up new areas in the economy, like stronger IT/Services sectors, compared to if poverty would still be over 50% and the population would be less educated. While the upper-classes are already educated and can care for them self. This bring more capable workforce to the markets. Income equality has dramatically increased during Chavez and different kinds of social programs. During the 2002 coup against Chavez, almost resulted in an popular uprising.

In the end this comes down to are the benefits worth the negatives. This has also divided Venezuela, with a small majority agreeing with Chavez. In a month there will be new elections in Venezuela.

[number47]

I really don't care much for the guy but from the data on http://www.imf.org or http://www.tradingeconomics.com I just don't see that inflation has gone higher since he took charge...quite the opposite
Tkobo and Balth, can you guys tell me where are your numbers coming from? No agenda, I'm just curious...

[Chesehead]

His long term legacy will in Foriegn policy with his drift in the Russian/Soviet sphere of influence. The recent ties gives Russia a new foot hold in Latin and South America which is a big win for them in the long term.

On the plus side, since he'd dead, does that mean I can buy Citgo gas again?

[Balthagor]

As mentioned in my post, I have not had a chance to confirm my data re: inflation, it's second hand from recollections of articles I've read.

[tkobo]

Because the country was prevented from hitting "rock bottom" while following chav ,by his death, many will forever refuse to acknowledge the harm done.....

@balt ,inflation under chav had averaged over 20% a year,easily found via multiple sources.And remember ,thats for more than 10 years straight.Its currently at 22% which is one of the highest rates in latin america.And lets not forget all the devaluations,which combined with greatly lowered domestic production,and greatly increased foreign imports ,is the text book example of how to create high and rising inflation .

In 2010,after a previous devaluation,inflation reached 27%......

As for "helping the poor" ? Did he help the poor when he made them further dependent on handouts from the government (and remember,HE was the government) ?

Of course not.Its the simple difference between showing someone they can rely on charity and handouts,or showing them they can improve their situation so they dont need charity or handouts.The company store and the gov store are the same beasts,with the difference that the gov store is more all-encompassing and harder to escape from.

Those who want things given to them,and those who believe they are "entitled" to the things they want simple because they exist,will of course disagree...right up to the point that it goes to hell, and they find themselves as the ones who "must" give what they have to others for no reason other than the others want it...at which point violence increases...

..which brings us to the crime rate...

Constantly tell people they are victims,"oppressed" by the people around them who didnt end up relying on handouts from the gov,and watch as those "victims" feel "entitled" to steal and murder.venezuela has a higher murder rate than columbia,which is fighting 2 insurgencies,and a higher murder rate than mexico which is in a full blown drug war....

..and crime vs the chavez govs action (or inaction) ,its not referred to as la impunidad as a misnomer.A recent example,a group of armed men attacked the central university of venezuela,police managed to show up 3 days afterwards to "investigate".

[number47]

@balt ,inflation under chav had averaged over 20% a year,easily found via multiple sources.And remember ,thats for more than 10 years straight.Its currently at 22% which is one of the highest rates in latin america.And lets not forget all the devaluations,which combined with greatly lowered domestic production,and greatly increased foreign imports ,is the text book example of how to create high and rising inflation .

In 2010,after a previous devaluation,inflation reached 27%......

Than I'm looking at the same numbers...so I wonder how I see it differently than you. Average inflation rate during 14 years of Chavez rule vas around cca 24% which, while incredibly high, is still lower compared to average 45% inflation rate from 1984 to 1998 (14 years period prior to his rule)....

[Hullu Hevonen]

...

Yeah, universal healthcare, free education, state guaranteed pension will make you riot and kill people... What's in my opinion Venezuela's biggest issue is all the corruption, crub the corruption, then you might as well get some ease on other issues, like crime(less people getting payed by corrupt people to do crime) and inflation(less greedy scum-bags screwing up the economy, so to speak). Note I said fixing corruption will ease crime and inflation, not fix them as well

[PyongYang]

I would encourage a different word that "destroy" if you're going to make such broad sweeping statements. I consider myself a social democrat and Canada is fairly socialist in it's politics (Healthcare, Education, etc). I don't like people coming to our forum saying I and my countrymen should be destroyed.

You know that's not what I meant. Don't be so over sensitive.

[Balthagor]

Actually, I had no idea what you meant. That's the challenge on forums, is discerning when what a person says is not what they mean. I think I wrote my reply respectfully. If I misunderstood you, then don't worry about my response. I had already forgotten about it.

[Hullu Hevonen]

For those that still think Chavez was someone that didn't do anything for his people(even if he didn't help the Rich), even if some would have the Venezuelans as dump or naive, he had to have done something right when he has so many hardcore followers(millions visiting 'him'). Watch the vid or read the article