sa_3_d911 wrote:
well if your definition of democracy is that the people's voices were able to remove a government in power ,if you definition of democracy is that the parlimant's elections could actually change the balance of power ,then i think that we had a democracy ,yes we didn't have an absolute democracy ,but had the british intervention been taken out of the equation we would have a democracy equal & exactly like the one in the UK .
First there is no MY definition.There is only THE definition.As Alfred Korzybski said,the "word is not the thing".
What you had at that time would be considered a form of constitutional monarchy.And its very much like the two examples i gave of early england, and definately NOT a democracy.There are NO kings,monarchs,etc... in a democracy.
Again, the power of rule in democracy is in the peoples hands,they can delegate it if they choose,but they must be able to take it away from any they delegate it too thru diplomatic means.It why free and fair elections are cornerstones of representative democracies.
It is so funny that you claim that wael ghoniem used the muslim brotherhood's help
Seems to me its funnier a:i never said he used them.....And that b: you failed to see the more likely scenario of they used him.
Theres no question ,they participated from the beginning.They left to many "tracks" behind,like the two examples i gave of the reporters who helped spread "his words" ,who are both muslim bortherhood and were at work on this from day 1.
But either way, you have a leader who had their help.
And they been very open in admitting it.Both the main body of the brotehrhood itselfm and its youth branch.Mohamed el-Kassas can be found in photos in the sqaure surrounded by his followers form the very onset of the protests, he spend alot of time there right now,as hes trying to organize resisitance the the armies order that the sqaure should clear .
Mr Kassas is one of the young Brotherhood leaders who are part of the “coalition of youth of the Egyptian revolutionâ€, which organised the protests and occupation of Tahrir Square.
After america won its revolution, there was a small but very vocal group who wanted george washington to name himself king.Many of them had wanted this all along.They simply waited til their first foe was defeated,before picking their next.Theres a HUGE lesson there.
,because he actually used the fan page on facebook,but since you keep bringing up the muslim brotherhood ,& since you apparently are very aware of what is going on in egypt ,did you know that a reformist part of the muslim brotherhood separated & created a party with copts in egypt &
yea ,yea, and hamas separated from the brotherhood after it claimed to have renounced violence,and the youth group has declared itself opposed to traditional muslim brotherhood goals, and the provisional irish republican army separated from the irish republican army , and the Continuity IRA separated form the ira, and the
general command separated from the plo,and the asg split from the moro national liberation front, ad nauseam (etc)
Smoke and mirrors meant to allow the main body,the original terror group in each case, to put up a front of being peaceful,while supporting, encouraging, allowing and even assigning the violence to their "new" "separated" member groups.
published there view of a SECULAR Nation in which men,women ,muslims & copts have the same rights ,& did you also know that the muslim brotherhood is actually having conversation about the fact that they can either join this party or remain a FORBIDDEN group ,since they are not allowed to form a party on a religious bases
And hezbollah claims the same....not much of a confidence builder there.
the muslim brotherhood consists of a broad spectrum of people ,because they are equivelent to the USA's conservative parties
No, just no.Thats easily one of the most insane things ive read on this forum in circa 8 years...
,but that doesn't make them any more powerful ,& if you have followed the reform that you keep mentioning you would have seen that many egyptians opposed to the state council's decision ,
And many didnt.
but because there was no democracy ,no matter what you said no one heard you & why didn't you mention the demonstrations that happened after that decision
Thats simple.Its because my response was to the incredibly erroneous statement you made about how he wasn't resisted in any reforms
, and not a statement on who supported and who didnt support the reform.Aagn in even simpler terms,my reply was to show how egregious your stament was, and had no other purpose.And so thats all it covered.
turkey is a mess
! ,
Yes, it is, and getting worse becuase far to many of its people are willingly giving over to an islamist,or fleeing the country.
how do you figure that exactly ,turkey isn't a democracy
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Turkey is a parliamentary republic turning into a theocracy.It has NO free press.It has no separation of church and state ,and church law often trumps mans law.Like in how religious education is compulsory.Or how "reporters" and authors can be tried for "insulting Turkish national identity"(illegal to insult Turkey, the Turkish ethnicity, or Turkish government institutions.)
the muslim brotherhood didn't join the protesters till the near end & at first they actually refused to protest & in fact they were willing to negotiate with the regime ,so the muslim brotherhood participation was minimal at best
Ive already shown how thats untrue,how they helped set up the protests,including names of some of those involved.Ive for instance shown the two reporters ,ive shown the youth orgs involvement,etc...They were easily one of the top four players, and thats if you give ghoniem the benefit of the doubt that he didnt know he had help dierectly from the muslim bortherhood and its youth division, which is VERY debatable.AND only if you also dont consider ElBaradei conections to the muslim brotherhood and consider him "independent" for some odd reason.
&
we have no desire to become a muslim state .
Arent you the one who declared with great furor how you would kill for god.....Seems to me,your not a very good example to make such a claim.
what about them ,the muslim brotherhood may be many things ,but it is a part of the egyptian culture
And as it has openly stated many many times, it is against democracy and puts god's law ( laws put in place by a select subset of the population based on their interpretations of the wants and goals of a non-existant mythical being) over mans laws (the basis of democracy)
it is part of our history ,i may disagree with it's ideologies
You "may" eh ?Not you do disagree,but you "may disagree"......
,i may not like there take on most issues
theres that word again.
,but if they really are so powerful that they are going to win in the next election ,then they won fair & square .
The very fact thats possible and that you would accept it, shows a willingness to fall under yet another tyrant.So much for your want for democracy.And it clearly shows why many people have such doubt this will end well.This is after all how hitler cam to power, how saddam came to power, how iran became a theocracy,etc...
Then there is that you accepted your last dictator for what ... 30 years ....before you finally took action and removed him...
if they actually are as strong as you make sound like then let the wish of the people come true & time will tell who is right
More importantly,if egpyt fails , it will have even less of a case to blame others this time around for its own failure.
& me & hundreds of musicians ,lawyers,judges,police officers,professors ....etc disagree with them that is democracy
!
No, no it isnt.At its best,Its an element of democracy,but can also be an element of many other things.Democracy is not simply the act of disagreement.Irans mullahs disagree with the green opposition on many things,and vice versa,that doesnt make iran a democracy.
yeah your right there is no way that i know every reform that the man made to the constitution
Yes, iam right.Any attempt at sarcasm you trying here cant change that.
,i mean he did sooooo many reforms
! there were only two reforms in his regin of terror ,
Wrong.
*multiparty/ candidate elections in 2005
*economic reform on banks,making over 1/2 of them no longer in government hands.2004
*Tahany el-Gibali, Egypt's first woman judge, to the Constitutional Court in 2003,due to a reform passed in 2002 on women judges.
*educational reform 2001,pushing critcial thinking over rote.
*free trade reform 1999
*reform of government control over the press (started in circa 1996),which has allowed the creation of over 500 newspapers that reflect different political trends.
Which allowed for thr first time in egypts history private and independent news papers.
I came up with three times your claim ,with very little effort.
he amended the constitution twice in order to make it perfect for his kid to take power ,these times were 2005 & 2007 ,would you like me to read you the specific changes as well ,i think that i said more than once that i was a political science major haven't i
Youve said it alright, and yet i a non-citizen of egypt who is NOT political science major have been able to show an astounding lack of knowledge on your part about that very subject as it pertains to your very own nation.
actually because i saw the committee that mubarak formed during the days of protest & i saw the numbers that they gave him & the real numbers & it was estimated that 20 million egyptian protested .
So now, by your own admission, its only an estimate, and one put forth by a committee put in place by the very dictator you finally got off you backsides after circa 30 years and kicked out .... ?
when did this happen ,last year when there was serious disscusions about returning to teaching religion ?? or when they were disccusing leaving politcs completely
or yesterday when many defected & created a secular party with copts & women & with only minor religious refrences ,yeah they are very powerful
I could easily ask when hasnt it been happening ?we already know you have no idea how many members they actually have, we already know they have no idea how many members they actually have, and we already know the dictator had no idea how many members they actually have.If your gonna count of questimates to protect you, than thats just one more reason to doubt the pro-democracy faction will succeed.
yeah well many countries toppeled dictatorships & turned into democracies ,why can't that be us !!
You keep asking the wrong questions.Its not why cant it be you, its will it be you.the strong evidence on both sides,that democracy can come about in egypt, and that it will be hijacked.
Many countries have toppled dictators only to give themselves new ones,Your country has gone from one to another multiple times.Farouk,Fuad ,Nasr, sadat,why is this time going to be different ?
actually those elections was a show by the former regime to make people like think like you do now
That sentence doesnt even make any sense.Im guessing your youve managed to mangle what you mean to say due to improper use of english.try and say it again.
in the end i want to say that there is no way that egypt is turning back ,we have toppled the dictator that was seen as one of the most powerful in the world ,so i think that we can take on the muslim brotherhood if they try to take this from us
Would be nice,maybe egypt will even gets it act together enough to feed itself,and the wfp can stop having to feed 300k egytian children.
