Yeonpyeong

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tkobo
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by tkobo »

The humor in this thread is very high...sadly not intentionally.

For those who lack some very simple information :
First Iraq war ended in a treaty with conditions that Iraq broke.Hence either party could declare the treaty void,and resume the war.
The First Korean war ended in a treaty with conditions that North Korea has broken, and claims the other sides have also.Hence either side can declare the treaty void and resume the war.


The whole illegal war stance is just utter nonsense.The broken treaties in both cases allow the resumption of war perfectly legal.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Balthagor »

tkobo wrote:...The whole illegal war stance is just utter nonsense...
From the Wiki;
The then United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in September 2004 that: "From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal.
You're welcome to disagree with the law, but that doesn't change it. And that doesn't mean it was the wrong course of action (or right). Just that it was a breach of law.

But that is for another thread.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by tkobo »

And your welcome to "believe" the UN makes the law, which even they dont believe ,as they were careful enough to state their view as an opinion.
From our point of view
You'll also note,they make no mention during this opinion of the 1991 ceasefire treaty.Which like the korean war's end, was a cessation of fighting based on conditions that were required to be met by the parties involved.You'll notice i hope,its not an end to the war,but an end to the fighting,based on conditions.Even the UNSC's own resolution states
1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire;
So annan's opinion,whether on this or his and his sons involvement in the oil for food program scandal,is just that... an opinion.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Eldin »

This thread is getting derailed. The topic was that of the artillery exchange in SK.

I don't see this conflict or "misunderstanding" between NK and SK escalating much further. Neither of the nations nor their neighbours would benefit from an open conflict and the economic consequences would be severe not only for Asia. I believe NKs best bet is to hope that Kim Jong-Il's son or a military junta will loosen the grip over the country and gradually rejoin the rest of the world.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

I agree, this topic ain't about Iraq War, there was one about that, please stay to subject or close this topic
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Lightbringer »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:"The US and South Korean militaries are taking part in a major exercise in the Sea of Japan, despite threats of retaliation from North Korea."

"The army and people of the DPRK will start a retaliatory sacred war of their own style based on nuclear deterrent any time necessary in order to counter the US imperialists and the South Korean puppet forces deliberately pushing the situation to the brink of a war,"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10752746

AND I think that the Sinking of Cheaong(or how you spell it) is an invalid casus-belli to use as an excuse to for the military exercise, for the following arguments;
*Cheaong was sunk on disputed territory, where NK and SK both consider the area part of their terriotry, therefor if the other comes to that territory, then the defender will take measures to defend "their" border. You can't wander into a war zone expecting no causalities.
*North Korea has denied that they where responsible for the sinking. So the U.S. Navy could just slaughter the entire NK navy and then simply "deny" any responsibility? Grand!! What are we waiting for then?
*The truth about the sinking is unclear, so that should of been clarified properly before intentionally provoke an instable Government, it is common knowledge that the Korean Gov is screwed. "Unstable", "Screwed", provoked into violent, offensive action by the mere concept that other people have military equipment. Doesn't sound like the sort of Government that would be "justified" to do any damned thing at all. :wink:

So thats why in my opinion NK's actions is more justifed, because they where provoked to it. Let me try a different analogy. Two brothers are estranged over a fist fight they had a long time ago. One brother says publicly that if his brother ever comes near him, the fight is back on. The second brother shows up at the same bar as the first brother. The first brother then pulls out a gun and shoots the second brother. Justified? I do condemn killing of Civilians, though South Korea is an representative Democracy, the people there have more say in their governments actions than those in North Korea, but do remember that I said that I condemn.
Lightbringer wrote:You do realize the fallacy of this argument, right? Or do you think that the war somehow "ended in a peace, instead of a ceasefire" for South Korea? Seems to me that their economy is doing just fine. Perhaps you should compare Communism and Democracy and see which system provided a better life for it's people under the exact same circumstances.

The Sovjet GDP/c was in 1929, 1386$, and in 1939, 2237$, a growth of ca. 61%. While the US GDP/c was during the same times, 6899$ in 1929 and in 1939 6561$, a growth of ca. -5%.
USA GDP/c growth from 1980(18577$) to 1985(20717$) was ca. 11,5%, while Sovjet economy was at 6427$ in 1980 and in 1985 at 6708, making the growth at ca. 4,4%. Showing that Communism is better for developing/poor nations, while Capitalism better suited for "richer" nations. Also Watch the economic growth of communist China, well, they are still on the poor side, but are growing at high speed, and I bet that they will need to make more "capitalistic" changes when their people get stronger, and they have already made some small capitalistic changes.
Except that I was not talking about the Soviets, or China. I was talking about two halves of the same country. With the same people, basically the same resources, the same infrastructure, both of them starting the race at the EXACT SAME starting line. SK has lapped NK several dozen times in the economic/quality of life race. Comparing Russia and the USA and China is comparing apples and oranges and pears. Comparing NK/SK is comparing two halves of the same apple. One half rotted and is crawling with maggots. The other half sprouted and has grown into an apple tree.
So, using your logic, the United States and SK would be "justified" in bombing NK back to the stone age, for the exact same reasons you claim NK was "justified" in killing SK sailors, soldiers, and civilians? Wait... SK would be justified to actually attack NK, but they are NOT justified to simply run maneuvers where no one gets hurt or killed? You have a very twisted concept of "justification".

Also, condemning something that you also claim is 100% justified is illogical and nonsensical... or just plain blowing a smokescreen out your bunghole.

-Light
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Lightbringer »

It seems the South Koreans have just about had enough...

http://www.businessinsider.com/south-ko ... ar-2010-11

Perhaps the North Koreans have too...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rship.html

Read the whole article. It paints a picture of what Hullu would like to "Justify".

-Light
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

Lightbringer wrote:...

"Screwed", provoked into violent, offensive action by the mere concept that other people have military equipment. Doesn't sound like the sort of Government that would be "justified" to do any damned thing at all. :wink:
Huh??

-Light
NK GDP/c in 1950 was 854$ and in 1960 1105$, while SK had 854$ in 1950 and 1226$ in 1960, starting from same point but not being to far ahead. in 1970, SK had a gdp/c 2167$ and NK 1954$, still just slightly behind, but 1972, NK had surpassed SK with 2561$, SK had 1975 2456$. But just after 1980's SK started to grow faster, and NK stalled for a while on place until early 1990's when NK was hit by famine and that caused the down turn in the NK GDP/c. The main reason why the North Korean Famine happened was not because of Communism, but instead of flooding, eg. rivers over floating, rain and such.

So, now your still ignoring the first dot... DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE MAIN POINT IN MY ARGUMENT?? What would you do if the Russians entered US waters? let them roam there on "there" territorial waters? what about disputed territory don't you understand? Just because you think your right about it being your waters and ignoring other parties, that does NOT mean it is necessarily flawlessly your water. So 'maybe' sinking someone in the part of your water that is also somehow knowingly part of someone else's water too, is not the best place to get someone exercising to show that they are bigger then you.

I do condemn, the civilian killings, because some petty naval fights/exercises should not be taken out on civilians. I say that a civilian in SK has more to say in it's government actions that the average NK citizen, due to the pointed out fact that NK has no political freedom, freedom of speech etc. Just stating the fact.

I have not said anything to imply that NK is a saint, I did not say that NK had 100% casus-belli in the shelling, I said they had some Casus-Belli, due to reasons given above.
EDIT:
It paints a picture of what Hullu would like to "Justify".
Not to be dispolite, but I would of hit you for that. You should not use type like that if you don't fully understands what I try to "justify".
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by tkobo »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:
Not to be dispolite, but I would of hit you for that. You should not use type like that if you don't fully understands what I try to "justify".
Hahhahahhahahahahhahahhahahhahahahah, yup , jails are full of them.......
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Balthagor »

everyone relax.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by sugarkane »

Some interesting pictures of the events
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/1 ... oreas.html
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by Lightbringer »

Hullu Hevonen wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:...

"Screwed", provoked into violent, offensive action by the mere concept that other people have military equipment. Doesn't sound like the sort of Government that would be "justified" to do any damned thing at all. :wink:
Huh?? What do you not understand? You yourself described their government as "screwed". Neither the United States nor South Korea has so much as caused a scratch on a citizen of North Korea. Escalating a response to military exercises into murdering civilians and blatant acts of War is not, nor can it ever be "Justified".

-Light
NK GDP/c in 1950 was 854$ and in 1960 1105$, while SK had 854$ in 1950 and 1226$ in 1960, starting from same point but not being to far ahead. in 1970, SK had a gdp/c 2167$ and NK 1954$, still just slightly behind, but 1972, NK had surpassed SK with 2561$, SK had 1975 2456$. But just after 1980's SK started to grow faster, and NK stalled for a while on place until early 1990's when NK was hit by famine and that caused the down turn in the NK GDP/c. The main reason why the North Korean Famine happened was not because of Communism, but instead of flooding, eg. rivers over floating, rain and such. So it never rains in South Korea? They never had a river overflow? They never had a flood or other natural disaster? All you proved is that any outward appearances of success in North Korea were eggshell covering a rotting core. Once that shell cracked, the disgusting insides spilled out for all the world to see.

So, now your still ignoring the first dot... DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE MAIN POINT IN MY ARGUMENT?? What would you do if the Russians entered US waters? let them roam there on "there" territorial waters? what about disputed territory don't you understand? Just because you think your right about it being your waters and ignoring other parties, that does NOT mean it is necessarily flawlessly your water. So 'maybe' sinking someone in the part of your water that is also somehow knowingly part of someone else's water too, is not the best place to get someone exercising to show that they are bigger then you. Sinking a ship without warning is an act of War. Shelling civilians is an act of War. What part of that equation do you not understand? You keep conveniently forgetting that any military exercises being conducted, were in response to acts of aggression by the NorKs. If the United States were to sink a Russian Frigate, I would expect the Russians to conduct military exercises. However, I would also expect my government to either admit responsibility and apologize through diplomacy, or carry through with an all out War. Not snivel and LIE, and try to avoid taking responsibility.

I do condemn, the civilian killings, because some petty naval fights/exercises should not be taken out on civilians. I say that a civilian in SK has more to say in it's government actions that the average NK citizen, due to the pointed out fact that NK has no political freedom, freedom of speech etc. Just stating the fact.

I have not said anything to imply that NK is a saint, I did not say that NK had 100% casus-belli in the shelling, I said they had some Casus-Belli, due to reasons given above.
EDIT:
It paints a picture of what Hullu would like to "Justify".
Not to be dispolite, but I would of hit you for that. You should not use type like that if you don't fully understands what I try to "justify". You have done nothing but try to justify the type of government that tortures and starves and oppresses the people of North Korea by claiming that they created a utopia for all citizens. You have done nothing but try and justify that same government's warlike aggressive murderous actions by blaming the murder of civilians, and Acts of War upon the victims of such acts. Perhaps it is YOU who does not fully understand what you are trying to "Justify". Perhaps you do not understand that making excuses for Insane Tyrants "Justifies" every action they take. You can not say, "It is alright for the Tyrant to murder these people, they were asking for it!" With that statement, you legitimize every single action that he takes. Then again, I am sure that Kim Jong Il would have been proud of the way you threatened me with violence for disagreeing with you.
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by tkobo »

Hahhahahaha N.K. has unleashed it technological might in a no holds barred propaganda fight ....

Yes that right, tremble before the N.K. fax.....

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... ar/?hpt=T2

This fax, who's coming was foretold by magical hummingbirds, was born on a glorious secret military base on Baekdu mountian,under the weeping eyes of its gathered
ancestral spirits,foreshadows the downfall of the ebil west .
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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by SoB »

"So, now your still ignoring the first dot... DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE MAIN POINT IN MY ARGUMENT?? What would you do if the Russians entered US waters? let them roam there on "there" territorial waters? what about disputed territory don't you understand? Just because you think your right about it being your waters and ignoring other parties, that does NOT mean it is necessarily flawlessly your water. So 'maybe' sinking someone in the part of your water that is also somehow knowingly part of someone else's water too, is not the best place to get someone exercising to show that they are bigger then you."
some how i do not see the amrican sinking a ship the enters it's waters most likly thing for them to do is despatch ther own naval forces to ether escort it out or escort it to one of there ports. the sikng of a ship is the biggest single loss any nation can hapen to them in a convenal war. To give you sense of how people see there naval ships you only need to look at my contries media. one of how frigats damged one of it's engins in a storm and the media is still going on about it has if it is out of commision but when the thhe air force loose a auguster 109 there is a small articall saying it crashed say how many dead?wouded and finishe and the army no ne cares about them :D.
You plastic soldiers i will turn you in to real soldiers


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Re: Yeonpyeong

Post by fool »

The propaganda war before the two countries has taken various forms, including a Christmas tree this week that left Seoul bracing for a possible backlash.
8_
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Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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