Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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The Khan
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Wikileaks: There is no good side.

Post by The Khan »

The logs contain numerous reports of previously unknown or unconfirmed events that took place during the war.

* According to the Iraq Body Count project, the logs show there have been around 15,000 more civilian deaths than was previously admitted by the US government. 66,000 civilians were reported dead in the logs, out of 109,000 deaths in total.[8][10]
* According to The Guardian, the logs "detail torture [by Iraqi police], summary executions and war crimes", US officials "ignored torture" and "the coalition has a formal policy of ignoring such allegations".[2]
* According to Wired Magazine, abuse of prisoners by Iraqi troops under US training was more wide-spread than formerly known.[8] Even after the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse incident came to light in 2004, abuse of prisoners or detainees by Iraqi security forces was common and rarely acted upon; in one recorded case, US troops wrote "no investigation is necessary" in response to claims of abuse by prisoners.[8](there is no excuse for this sentence)
* According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, one report shows that "the US military cleared an Apache helicopter gunship to open fire on Iraqi insurgents who were trying to surrender".[11]
* According to Wired Magazine, "WikiLeaks may have just bolstered one of the Bush administration’s most controversial claims about the Iraq war: that Iran supplied many of the Iraq insurgency’s deadliest weapons and worked hand-in-glove with some of its most lethal militias. The documents indicate that Iran was a major combatant in the Iraq war, as its elite Quds Force trained Iraqi Shiite insurgents and imported deadly weapons like the shape-charged Explosively Formed Projectile bombs into Iraq for use against civilians, Sunni militants and U.S. troops."[8]

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, NATO's secretary-general, stated that the release could cause "a very unfortunate situation", and that "such leaks ... may have a very negative security impact for people involved." US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also condemned the leak, saying that it "puts the lives of United States and its partners' service members and civilians at risk."[12]
I love this. Next time you ask me Light, "why do you hate America", I hate the double-faced, hypocritical, shadowy-tentacled parody of a democracy many of our lands are infested with.

For people involved: why yes, I'd love to see a negative impact on Abu Gharib torturers.
Amnesty International said that the actions taken by American troops in turning over prisoners from American to Iraqi custody when it was known that the prisoners were likely to be tortured may have broken international law.[13] An Amnesty official said that the organization had "concern[s] that the U.S. authorities committed a serious breach of international law when they summarily handed over thousands of detainees to Iraqi security forces who they knew were continuing to torture and abuse detainees on a truly shocking scale."
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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Khan wrote:I love this. Next time you ask me Light, "why do you hate America", I hate the double-faced, hypocritical, shadowy-tentacled parody of a democracy many of our lands are infested with.
War is Hell. If this situation had been reversed, and some third world Muslims had acted less than 100% pure and noble following defeating the United States in some war, you would not have one discouraging word to say. Anyway, reread your pull quote examples. Except for the Apache, everything else is Iraqi on Iraqi. Would you be happy if we had exterminated the entire population to ensure that none of them were bad boys and girls? Perhaps the Iraqi Security Forces felt that the sadistic butchers who had been torturing them for 30 years deserved some pay back?

It is NOT the USA's fault that Muslims do not seem capable of governing themselves without torture and murder. It happens with and without our presence and influence. It happens throughout Islam, whether the local government claims democracy or not. It has been happening since the first days that anyone followed the teachings of Mohamed, and it will probably be happening until Islam becomes a true religion instead of a religious political movement.
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P.S. (edit) Amnesty International is a commie pinko, Anti American, Anti Israeli pile of steaming cow manure. Amnesty International makes the U.N. look competent and unbiased by comparison. I would not urinate on them if they were on fire. They would invent atrocities if they felt it would hurt the United States' reputation around the globe.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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Lightbringer wrote: P.S. (edit) Amnesty International is a commie pinko, Anti American, Anti Israeli pile of steaming cow manure. Amnesty International makes the U.N. look competent and unbiased by comparison. I would not urinate on them if they were on fire. They would invent atrocities if they felt it would hurt the United States' reputation around the globe.
this is agree with fully.

Also, if the US, and its allies did not get involved, then they would surely get moaned at and hated for not doing anything and letting these things go on unabated. Its a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, but at least we choose to make the decision to at least try and make peoples lives better, whereas many countries are more then willing to moan but do nothing. Come back and see Afghanistan and Iraq in 20 years time and you will see how much better place they are compared to what they were 5-10 years ago before we arrived.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

Post by fool »

mmm, leaks
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Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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I'll write some more after lectures but I remember writing that "There is no good side".

Be back in a couple of hours.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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This is my standpoint: a battle units shouldn't live together with civilians. Worst case is a police operations participating. WW2 showed how the troops being degraded after it. These military people are losing their ideals (democracy, justice, etc.) and become like environmental civilians with more powerful guns. Wikileaks don't tell me something unexpected: US forces ought to do atrocities because circumstances. And the people who make it return to homeland.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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Khan wrote:...I remember writing that "There is no good side".
Fair enough. However, I have to wonder at your motivation for reopening the discussion of this topic. I have already admitted to you a dozen times that the U.S. forces did not act like Boy Scouts as pure as the wind driven snow in Iraq. Yet you keep picking at the topic like an itchy scab. Would you be happy if I dug up a new story of Turkish/Armenian atrocities and opened up a new thread about it on a monthly basis? We have discussed this topic to death, and I can only assume that you have some deep seated desire to try and smear the U.S.
Lea wrote:This is my standpoint: a battle units shouldn't live together with civilians. Worst case is a police operations participating. WW2 showed how the troops being degraded after it. These military people are losing their ideals (democracy, justice, etc.) and become like environmental civilians with more powerful guns. Wikileaks don't tell me something unexpected: US forces ought to do atrocities because circumstances. And the people who make it return to homeland.
I agree with you 100%. Soldiers are not police. Soldiers are not civil engineers. Soldiers are not diplomats (at least not after the shooting has stopped. See: Clausewitz). There is no victory condition in a "Police Action". No armistice is signed during "Nation Building". The only negotiations an insurgent truly understands is a bullet passing through his brain. I know it does not fit with our good guy ideals, but I have become jaded to the point that I think we ought to simply destroy everything and kill everybody we can as fast as we can, and then leave the mess behind. I am guessing that we would be attacked less frequently if death and destruction, not reconstruction and financial aid were the rewards for doing so.

-Light
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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Lightbringer wrote:I think we ought to simply destroy everything and kill everybody we can as fast as we can, and then leave the mess behind. I am guessing that we would be attacked less frequently if death and destruction, not reconstruction and financial aid were the rewards for doing so.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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We have discussed this topic to death, and I can only assume that you have some deep seated desire to try and smear the U.S.
Did I miss a thread concerning Wikileaks?


My apologies at sudden diving in and out, I have been overwhelmed by work just now. ****. Shouldnt start a discussion during lectures. Germany has heavier teaching than Turkey.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

Post by Hullu Hevonen »

I think amnesty is a international pain in the ass they are not just anti-american, they are anti-every nation in the world. I do think that US-armed forces in Iraq is partly justified, since the terrorists/guerrilla/'freedom fighters' etc. in Iraq is much less justified in their cause against USA-led coalition, Iraqi forces/gov etc. They have a much different history then Afghanistan and one thing that makes the Iraqi insurgents cause less justified and the USA killing more justified is that Iraqí is much more 'democratic'(might even be more democratic then USA and many other 'democratic' nations out there) then eg. Afghanistan. Iraqi insurgents are also of a different then the Afghan counter-parts and there is more different smaller insurgents most with different agendas and some even fighting each other. Though I still think that 'pointless' killing of civilians is not justified, but 'suspected' insurgents after trials etc. and and 'real' insurgents are justified. Though these can sometimes be somewhat blurred and can therefor cause sometimes problems with the public/rest of the worlds.

I condemn the way wikileaks published these 'leaks'. Though my position towards the content and Coalition forces in Iraq is currently "hmmm... :/..."
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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Lightbringer wrote: P.S. (edit) Amnesty International is a commie pinko, Anti American, Anti Israeli pile of steaming cow manure. Amnesty International makes the U.N. look competent and unbiased by comparison. I would not urinate on them if they were on fire. They would invent atrocities if they felt it would hurt the United States' reputation around the globe.
Light and others: I am genuinely interested in that perception. Can any of you back that up? I'd took them at face value when I saw an exhibition of worldwide modern day torture. Maybe Ive beeb a little naive about them.

However guys. Real politic, dirty wars, action taken in the heat of battle can mitigate. But, the systematic torture by states must be deplorable. My understanding is that torture doesnt work. Several studies by intel agencies have concurred that if you put enough hurt on somebody they start to tell you what they think you want to hear. This ultimately leads to as much disinformation as decent intel.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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I think that AI is a mixture of the humanitarian ideals and an international bureaucracy interests. It is useful in some doses for limiting of the states.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

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dust off wrote:
Lightbringer wrote: P.S. (edit) Amnesty International is a commie pinko, Anti American, Anti Israeli pile of steaming cow manure. Amnesty International makes the U.N. look competent and unbiased by comparison. I would not urinate on them if they were on fire. They would invent atrocities if they felt it would hurt the United States' reputation around the globe.
Light and others: I am genuinely interested in that perception. Can any of you back that up? I'd took them at face value when I saw an exhibition of worldwide modern day torture. Maybe Ive beeb a little naive about them.

However guys. Real politic, dirty wars, action taken in the heat of battle can mitigate. But, the systematic torture by states must be deplorable. My understanding is that torture doesnt work. Several studies by intel agencies have concurred that if you put enough hurt on somebody they start to tell you what they think you want to hear. This ultimately leads to as much disinformation as decent intel.
Well, i get tired of amnesty always vining about people breaking the law ending up in jail.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

Post by The Khan »

I have taken a quick look at others' posts, just one quote for now:

Code: Select all

And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? Matthew 7:3
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16

I'll be back for more, but just for now:

Once you allow other Iraqis to run wild on the prisoners like Abu Gharib, and claim "they are just avenging", you fall to the same moral level as a miserable kidney-failed old man enjoying a primitive, atavic satisfaction in an Afghani cave from having blown up WTC even though it wont even scratch the American juggernaut in the long run.

Not to mention his stupid campaign made the Afghani Snow Leopard nearly extinct. Have you seen one of these? Majestic.
It is NOT the USA's fault that Muslims do not seem capable of governing themselves without torture and murder. It happens with and without our presence and influence. It happens throughout Islam, whether the local government claims democracy or not.
100% True.

But then, for the U.S cause to be just, something good has to happen in Iraq, something better, something morally superior to its neighbors, or all the horrific money and manpower spending will come for naught. If the U.S and its rulers and intelligence knew the fact you said...then it can be easily claimed that the primary cause wasnt the restoration of Iraq, but increase the available oil to Israel and the NATO, right?One day, I wish a U.S general would openly say that one day. It wouldn't tarnish his reputation, but reinforce it(at least in my eyes), as honesty is very hard to come by in these times.

It can be easily ascertained that U.S knew of the Shi'a rush into Iraqi politics after it would be toppled, and it would fall into anarchy with daily bombings. But every man with common sense knows that as long as the oil rigs are secure, it matters not.

I started this because I didnt remember we discussed wikileaks and the leaks were...interesting.
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Re: Wikileaks: There is no good side.

Post by Lightbringer »

Khan wrote:I started this because I didnt remember we discussed wikileaks and the leaks were...interesting.
I was not referring to discussing "wikileaks". I was talking about the fact that we have discussed the events in Iraq backwards and forwards, up and down, left and right, good and bad, etc. etc. etc. I am, like you, pressed for time, so more later. However, I agree in principle that if the current Iraqis turn out to be as nasty as Saddam's bully boys, then the whole thing was for naught.

I'll also address the Amnasty International question very soon. Tonight however I must cut it short.

-Light
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