Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

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Lea
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#61 Post by Lea » Mar 18 2010

Lightbringer wrote:Your English has improved since we started this discussion. However, when you completely ignore my comments and make the same assertions over and over again, I have to wonder if it is your English comprehension, or simply you being difficult on purpose. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please pay me the respect of dropping the tactic if you are intentionally "misunderstanding" me.
You should understand that you talk to a stranger. The thoughts which habitual to you since the childhood as 2*2=4, seems to me strange and illogical, and vice versa. You are much more similar with Progressives (liars and haters) than with me. You should prove some thoughts from the basis, by different ways. It will do you good to check stereotypes.
Lightbringer wrote:There is a big difference in taking tax money and building an army (navy etc.) to defend the entire country and taking tax money and giving it to an individual for some entitlement program like welfare or health care. More on this below.
Do you think that entire country can't to protect itself from illnesses or poverty like from enemy?
Lightbringer wrote:The last three are examples of services that ensure the safety of the entire community. They are also examples of services that are both too expensive, and would be less effective if handled by private companies. They are similar to roads, sewers, and water systems, except with a much more interactive human component.
The health care can be similar to it. You already complain that it too expensive.
Lightbringer wrote:Health Care is a product. If someone without insurance has a heart attack, the cardiac condition is not going to spread and destroy the whole neighborhood or town.
You have forgotten about feature of illnesses to infect people around. Not heart attack but trivial cold. One ill employee will come for work and infect entire office. One ill man in station or airport can infect hundreds and they will carry illness on all country. This is a big economic losses for entire country.
Lightbringer wrote:Government has the job of providing the community with services that are unfeasible for individuals to provide for themselves.
Not unfeasible but inexpedient.
Lightbringer wrote:Actually, although that WIKI article describes it much more comprehensively than I did, it says the same exact thing I did. I understand them perfectly, and the article explains the differences between what I consider a "right" and what is a bought and paid for government bribe...
I consider that your lack that you have not specified the Rights. Don't forget that you speak with a stranger. You should ask about the civil or political rights, not at all. These Rights have been declared in the USSR but observed restrictedly. However you have told "prove to me that Russians have ever had any Rights". Russian, not only Soviet...
Lightbringer wrote:Yes. Novgorod was on the western edge of a vast and barbaric wasteland where "human rights" meant the most common sword arm that would slice off your head. As I said several posts ago. Russians have never in history been exposed to having basic human rights. If it wasn't the Mongols smashing them, it was the Czars' (Tzar? which do Russians use?) Cossacks riding them down, or the Soviets locking them up in gulags and starving them across the Ukraine, or forcing them to work to death in factories for a crappy apartment and some cheap vodka. I was not insulting Russians. I was empathizing with them for suffering such brutality for so many centuries.
Oh, no... Right to arm guns before 1906 (I told it many times), and I can continue. You was empathizing with not Russian but myths about them.
Lightbringer wrote: Yet you somehow suggest that such crappy treatment that you flee a thousand miles to escape it is something that the United States should strive for?
Again especially for you: modern Russian health care not equivalent Soviet health care.
Lightbringer wrote:Oh... you might want to ask Ahmadinehjad about that "invading and nuking" thing. Obama hates Israel, but I doubt he will openly attack them.
I hope he comes here under a pseudonym... :-)
tkobo wrote:Healthcare under the soviet union was even worse then, than it is now under the semi -democracy.From the continual failure of the "five year plans" to the easily reconized failure of government to effectively run healthcare on the scraps it had left over after it spent on everything esle.
Don't so worry and don't misprint, do you speak on a native language?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia
Tkobo, learn to identify propagation. For example, phrase "...and a lot of screaming. (Epidurals for painless labor were unheard of.)"
Ponder over it: a woman complains of a traditional method of a birth which was used by millenniums. Oh, she demand epidural! She don't know that it began to be applied widely after a decade. All our mothers did without it with a high probability.
Other pump of horrors like Hitchcock films even amuse me. Next time, please, ask a country inhabitants at first, how much similar articles correspond to a reality. Also the same apply to other biased sources (e.g. libertarian the Mises Institute).

P.S. Whether it is time to rename that theme to "Soviet zests"? :lol:

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#62 Post by tkobo » Mar 18 2010

Lea wrote:
Don't so worry and don't misprint, do you speak on a native language?


Can someone please translate that into english ?It looks like he just accused me of a misqoute, despite my qoutes being direct cut and pastes from the articles i supplied ....


Tkobo, learn to identify propagation.

????Another translation required here ...Did he mean propaganda ?


For example, phrase "...and a lot of screaming. (Epidurals for painless labor were unheard of.)"
Ponder over it: a woman complains of a traditional method of a birth which was used by millenniums.

Why the nerve she has ..!Why didnt she just go out into the field ,dig a hole in the mud, and have the baby there ?Doesnt she know it was "done for millenniums that way ? " :lol:
Oh course she was in a russian soviet hospital, so perhaps she thought was was in mud ditch ?.....Hmm, do russian doctors and nurses show up at ditchs and ask for bribes also ?If not, maybe she just liked to pay bribes .........


Oh, she demand epidural! She don't know that it began to be applied widely after a decade. All our mothers did without it with a high probability.

Well, again her nerve !People after her ten years later got it! Whats she crying about ?.....|O Its NOT like she was important,damn peasants !Just where is stalin ,she needs to be purged ! :lol:



Other pump of horrors like Hitchcock films even amuse me. Next time, please, ask a country inhabitants at first, how much similar articles correspond to a reality. Also the same apply to other biased sources (e.g. libertarian the Mises Institute).

Right... becuase the article in which they do just that, and the respondent is a russian doctor from that time period,and hes saying the same exact things,surely shows its all just "those damn westerners and their capitalist proganda"... or was that propagation to you ?:lol:


P.S. Whether it is time to rename that theme to "Soviet zests"? :lol:
No thanks ,i prefer threads that are actually worth a damn.
Last edited by tkobo on Mar 18 2010, edited 1 time in total.
This post approved by Tkobo:Official Rabble Rouser of the United Yahoos
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#63 Post by fool » Mar 18 2010

Y'all didn't read my post at all after that line did you? Does a man with a broken arm threaten my safety? Then how does paying for his medical care ensure my safety? Does getting my drinking water from the same creek that the town dumps it's sewage into threaten my safety? Then paying taxes for water treatment and sewage disposal ensures my safety.
Paying taxes for medical care also ensures your own safety. Yes, you could never need medical treatment. On the other hand, you could never need your water filtered.
(see? this game is very simple!) Can I afford to pay a doctor to set my broken arm, even without insurance? Yes. Can I afford to build my own private sewage treatment plant if my neighbor craps in my drinking water supply? Not likely.
Remember markets? You could pay for someone who privately owns a water treatment plant to treat your water for you. Why is it that you don't support that?
I already know y'all are going to bring up plagues and such. Think about it. Public sanitation prevents a vast majority of those public health problems. That is why I do not complain about taxes for clean water, trash collection, and public drainage and mosquito spraying. Childhood diseases? immunizations are such a tiny % of your lifetime medical experience, that socializing over them is laughable. Who invented/discovered all the vaccines anyway? I can tell you with some confidence, it wasn't socialized medical doctors.
Hmm...
See Edward Jenner:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner
Jenner is widely credited as the pioneer of smallpox vaccine, and is sometimes referred to as the 'Father of Immunology'. Jenner's discovery 'has saved more lives than the work of any other man'.
Jenner's continuing work on vaccination prevented his continuing his ordinary medical practice. He was supported by his colleagues and the King in petitioning Parliament and was granted £10,000 for his work on vaccination. In 1806 he was granted another £20,000 for his continuing work.
http://www.cogforlife.org/thevaccinationquestion.htm
Edward Jenner gave his discovery to the world for free. He did not patent it, never made any money on it, and lived the rest of his life before going to his judgment as a quiet country doctor
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Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#64 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 19 2010

We need "Obamacare" like we need a hole in the head... http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/cbo-oba ... 2-trillion
The CBO says that Obamacare would cost $2.0 trillion in the bill’s real first decade (from 2014 to 2023) — and much more in the decades to come.
How would we pay for all of this? According to the CBO, by diverting $1.1 trillion away from already barely-solvent Medicare and spending it on Obamacare, and by increasing taxes on the American people by over $1 trillion.
@Fool
Fool wrote:Paying taxes for medical care also ensures your own safety.
Cutting my own dingus off would ensure my safety from venereal disease and unwanted fatherhood, but I'm not going to do that either. :wink:
Fool wrote:Remember markets? You could pay for someone who privately owns a water treatment plant to treat your water for you. Why is it that you don't support that?
Having multiple water treatment and supply systems in place would be incredibly wasteful and risky. Actually, If I understand the system correctly, in most places, different companies bid on running the water/waste treatment plants for the cities and towns. So there is some market forces in play without the waste of building and maintaining multiple systems. The taxes go to pay the company for it's services. Since it is inherently NOT wasteful to have several hospitals, and private companies have already built them, why would I think it was a better idea to have them all owned by the government?
Fool wrote:See Edward Jenner:
Was he a doctor in a nationalized health care system? No? Then I guess he was not a Socialized Doctor. If he had been working in some crappy, dingy clinic for NHS, he probably would not have had time or inclination to invent smallpox vaccine. His own altruism, and the King's generosity (and his colleague's) do not suddenly make him a socialist. You miss my point. Socialized medical systems don't have resources just floating around inventing stuff. Sure, he may have been assigned to some NHS lab to work on vaccines, or not...

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#65 Post by fool » Mar 19 2010

Edward Jenner was granted money by the government to continue his research and then made it available to all. Would you say this is an example of a capitalist doctor?
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#66 Post by Hundane » Mar 19 2010

Socialized medical systems don't have resources just floating around inventing stuff.
http://justlists.wordpress.com/2009/08/ ... of-origin/
The fact is… innovation occurs wherever fertile and creative minds are trying to address real human need.

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#67 Post by Balthagor » Mar 19 2010

Lightbringer wrote:...Socialized medical systems don't have resources just floating around inventing stuff.
Actually, they do...

http://www.als.ca/_news/4402.aspx
TORONTO, June 5, 2009 – Canadians with neurological conditions, caregivers and representatives from Neurological Health Charities Canada celebrate the announcement of $15 million in research funding, made on June 5th by The Honourable Leona Aglukkaq, Canada’s Minister of Health. The investment will fund the first-ever national study on the prevalence and impact of neurological diseases in Canada.
That was just the first of 1.4M hits on a Google search for "Canadian investment medical research"

As I said, I don't really care what the US does, but our system is not the coming of the next apocalypse. Canadian medical care is some of the best in the world.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#68 Post by The Khan » Mar 20 2010

The problem is not in the system, but the in the individuals. You can have a state supported healthcare where doctors and people that use the money don't waste it, and have a free health care system where all doctors and hospitals gouge prices just to work less and earn more.
I cant play SR2020 well but I still love 2010. Chris will hate me for exploiting his game to death.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#69 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 20 2010

*shrugs* Seems to me that diverting money from treatment budgets for research might explain the chronic waiting lists and denials of treatment.

I am not in the mood to argue the point. I do however suggest that if Obamacare passes, y'all pay some attention to what happens to the U.S. system. It ain't gonna be unicorns and rainbows, it ain't gonna get cheaper, and it ain't gonna magically cover everyone. One TRILLION dollar annual deficits? By the end of Obama's term, it will be hitting two trillion.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#70 Post by fool » Mar 20 2010

The Khan wrote:The problem is not in the system, but the in the individuals. You can have a state supported healthcare where doctors and people that use the money don't waste it, and have a free health care system where all doctors and hospitals gouge prices just to work less and earn more.
You seem to be suggesting that the individuals are totally independent from the system... :-?
Oh, and light?
National health is pretty much off the table regardless. I wouldn't worry if I were you.
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#71 Post by The Khan » Mar 21 2010

fool wrote:
The Khan wrote:The problem is not in the system, but the in the individuals. You can have a state supported healthcare where doctors and people that use the money don't waste it, and have a free health care system where all doctors and hospitals gouge prices just to work less and earn more.
You seem to be suggesting that the individuals are totally independent from the system... :-?
Actually, the doctors, and the bureaucrats can manage it well even if it would be state supported. If the hand that manages the alms isn't corrupt, the alms would land at the right people.
I cant play SR2020 well but I still love 2010. Chris will hate me for exploiting his game to death.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#72 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 21 2010

Fool wrote:National health is pretty much off the table regardless. I wouldn't worry if I were you.
Exactly how do you mean? Because they did not include a "single payer" type plan in this bill? :lol: This bill is all about destroying the existing insurance agency (Government mandated coverage levels, pre existing conditions for regular price, low Low LOW government fees for employers if they drop employee insurance plans so millions and millions of people get stuck in the exchanges. I could explain all day, but almost every effect this bill will have will cause insurance companies to lose money. Good thing they have those 2% windfall profits...) The single payer plan will come in about 10 years as the way to fix the train wreck Obamacare created (when there basically is no more insurance industry left).

It must be nice to be young and incapable of looking more than a few months down the road. :wink:

-Light

Watch til the end...read between the lines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wTDK-L ... re=related
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#73 Post by fool » Mar 21 2010

"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#74 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 21 2010

The original Senate bill taxed the health insurance industry a fixed $6.7 billion a year. Under the new proposal, the industry would face a $2 billion tax in 2011, with increases over time to $10 billion in 2017.

Analysts said the new proposal would allow insurers time to factor the tax into pricing.
That doesn't even factor in the onerous mandates regarding coverage levels and equal pricing for high risk customers. As I mentioned, this isn't something that is going to happen overnight, or by the end of the year. But once all this crap kicks in, and people realize that premiums are still skyrocketing, AND that the government penalty for not carrying insurance (not to mention that you can now not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, so you can ride uninsured and then sign up when you get sick) is much much lower than insurance premiums... You are going to see employers dumping their employees by the truckload, and individuals choosing a paltry fee over a hefty premium, and you are going to see the insurance companies going out of business. Either they are brain dead stupid, blind as a bat short sighted, or they are finagling their escape plans (golden parachutes etc.) as we speak.

Yes, if you just look at the glossy cover page synopsis, it would seem that this would increase insurance company business. But under the surface, this is designed to create a health insurance crisis, and we all know that Big government types hate to waste a good crisis...

Good luck with your defense budgets once we can no longer afford to cover your backs.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#75 Post by Kreiger815 » Mar 21 2010

Health Care bill passed 219 to 212.

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