Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

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Lea
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#46 Post by Lea » Mar 15 2010

tkobo wrote:ALOT of that paperwork expense IS THE GOVERNMENT.ALOT of it IS the "TPS" reports equivilant forced on the medical industry BY government.Healthcare is as mired in bureaucracy,as politics and law is now adays.Theres a reason why one of the fastest growing industries is healthcare advocacy,which is of course adding more expense to the health industry.
Therefore simplify health care system. At least to Japan level, or even to USSR level (no insurance, no specialized lawyers, only patients, doctors and government which paying all bills). It can be cheaper and more effective simultaneously, but it will be cognitive dissonance for you.
tkobo wrote:...etc...
Even the sun have blots.
tkobo wrote:We are after all sure you offer it only in emulation of stalins well known great love for the west .
It will be preferably for would-be "well known great love for the west" that your country will fall independently under burden of your debts.
Lightbringer wrote:Save your straw man "all or nothing" arguments for the other thread. When tax dollars are collected and spent on legitimate government responsibilities that can not be handled by individuals, such as national defense, then no person's Rights are being infringed to benefit one citizen over another. All benefit. Nationalized Health Care benefits some and infringes upon others, hence the concept is flawed.
Literal sense of your citation is that I have told: no taxes at all. You begin to interpret that sometimes it is possible to take away earned money.
Lightbringer wrote:Please prove to me that Russians have ever had any Rights that were not begrudgingly bestowed by your various tyrannical, authoritarian dictatorships? Did the Serfs have rights under the Czars? Perhaps the Komrades did under Stalin et al.? Any rights that your government can take away on a whim are not rights, they are no different than a slave master giving his slaves some extra food and short work on Sunday. Has any Russian ever successfully sued the government for violating his/her rights? This is why you glibly chatter about giving them up like throwing away an old shirt, because you have no true understanding of them.
Let's go. In Soviet times all our people have Rights to free health care and education. It was a Constitutional Rights and observed well.
In Russian Empire's time, until 1906 people (even serfs) had the Right to arm guns.
More early there was a Novgorod republic with direct democracy ruling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic And etc...

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#47 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 15 2010

Lea wrote:Literal sense of your citation is that I have told: no taxes at all. You begin to interpret that sometimes it is possible to take away earned money.
You need to spend another year or two studying English, because you apparently do not understand it.
The fact that government has no resources of its very own forces one to recognize that in order for government to give one American citizen a dollar, it must first, through intimidation, threats and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American.

If one person has a right to something he did not earn, of necessity it requires that another person not have a right to something that he did earn.
-Dr. Walter Williams
You are completely off base. What Dr. Williams is talking about is Taking from one citizen, and giving to another. He is not talking about taxation that is used for legitimate governmental responsibilities. Your claim of "no taxes at all" is completely, 100% wrong. You should remember that, since I have explained it to you at least 1/2 dozen times. Stop drinking so much vodka before you post. :wink:
Lea wrote:In Soviet times all our people have Rights to free health care and education. It was a Constitutional Rights and observed well.
In Russian Empire's time, until 1906 people (even serfs) had the Right to arm guns.
More early there was a Novgorod republic with direct democracy ruling
Thank you for proving my point in a clear and concise manner. You do not understand "Rights". Health Care is a government hand out. It is a bribe that the government gives to you. It is a way to control your actions, what you eat, drink, and do. Here is a little test. If the government runs short of money, could they cut back on Health Care services offered? No government official should be able to "cut back" on your rights. But since they "gave" them to you, they can also take them away. Education? Did you have the right to choose your school? Or were you assigned to learn what they decided you would learn? They installed a brainwashing system designed to churn out whatever sort of workers they needed, and called it a "Right".

"Rights" do not involve taking money from anyone. You do not pay taxes to "earn" your "Rights". They are something you have that does not cost anybody anything, and they are not gifts from some bureaucrat. Your vaunted Russian Education has taught you lies and distortions to serve the State. If the government has to tax someone to pay for it, and the government decides exactly what it will consist of from year to year, then it is not a Right, it is a social welfare entitlement.

As for the Novgorodian Democracy... The rest of the Russian Principalities wiped them out as quickly as possible to keep such scandalous ideas from spreading to their serfs. Not exactly a shining example of Russian enlightenment. I imagine the Novgordians (Novgorods?) only discovered the concept through their trading enterprise, and adopted the practice simply to seem civilized enough to convince Europeans to trade with them. I could be wrong, but in either case, it wasn't exactly a sweeping movement that encompassed the whole of Russian civilization.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#48 Post by fool » Mar 15 2010

What Dr. Williams is talking about is Taking from one citizen, and giving to another. He is not talking about taxation that is used for legitimate governmental responsibilities.
So your concern is whether or not the use of taxes is legitimate?
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#49 Post by tkobo » Mar 15 2010

Lea wrote:
It will be preferably for would-be "well known great love for the west" that your country will fall independently under burden of your debts.
And there we have both the sum of and motivation for your promotion of socialism and worse to other countries.Having failed miserably due to your own failed philosophy to defeat the west other ways,you turn to trying to do so by trying to turn us into you.

Not being willing or able to climb up to our level, you seek to convince us to go down to yours.

Not much change from the old.
"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will dig you in" (Нравится вам или нет, но история на нашей стороне. Мы вас закопаем).
The old "we will bury you" speech.

Problem then, as well as now, was history wasnt on your side.And our working class not only didnt bring us low, but instead made us stronger and still does.With tons people from all over the world trying to join us.
On the other hand it was YOUR working class that brought YOUR communist regime down.Finally fed up with the failed philosophy preached to them by psyhcopaths, that kept them serfs waiting in lines for scraps.

And to try and do so thru healthcare,which is incredibly funny considering how UN-free the corrupt and graft laden russian healthcare has been and still is.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1113877/

http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid= ... ci_arttext

http://www.insuranceprofessor.com/healt ... _care.html

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008 ... esdayfeb26

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1079567.html
Health care is supposed to be free in Russia, but Russians know that every hospital has its under-the-table price list.
That's why the family of Khazerya Ziyayetdinova, a 70-year-old woman suffering from severe bedsores, brought cash every time they visited her at Hospital 67 in Moscow. To have Ziyayetdinova recover in a room instead of the hallway, relatives slipped an orderly $300. They paid nurses $20 to give injections, change bedpans and unclog catheters. Every chat with Ziyayetdinova's doctor cost $40. "Our health-care system is still in the Middle Ages," said Vera Pavlova, Ziyayetdinova's daughter-in-law, sitting in her home in this small town 54 miles southwest of Moscow. "There's low professionalism, corruption - it makes me very worried about finding myself in a situation where I might need medical treatment." Russia is an unhealthy nation, and its health-care system is just as sick. Its hospitals are understaffed, poorly equipped and rife with corruption.

A 2000 study by the World Health Organization ranked Russia's health system 130th out of a list of 191 countries, on a par with Honduras and Peru.

According to Russia's respected Levada polling center, as few as 14 percent of Russians last year were satisfied with their country's health-care system. Only 24 percent of respondents said they had access to proper medical care
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#50 Post by fool » Mar 15 2010

And there we have both the sum of and motivation for your promotion of socialism and worse to other countries.Having failed miserably due to your own failed philosophy to defeat the west other ways,you turn to trying to do so by trying to turn us into you.
Image
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#51 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 16 2010

fool wrote:
What Dr. Williams is talking about is Taking from one citizen, and giving to another. He is not talking about taxation that is used for legitimate governmental responsibilities.
So your concern is whether or not the use of taxes is legitimate?
In a Constitutional sense. I have explained over and over and over again that the government has legitimate responsibilities that require taxes to fund. I agree with the Founding Fathers that taking money from one person, and giving it (either in cash or in entitlement services like health care) to another is illegitimate.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
“I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” — Thomas Jefferson
Anyone who tries to claim that the Founding Fathers intended a Socialist Welfare State, is either intentionally being obtuse or has a severe comprehension problem with the written English language.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#52 Post by fool » Mar 16 2010

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
Hmm. Actually, it's hard to find an actual attributation to Franklin. But ignoring this, there is still some ambiguity given the lack of context as to whether Franklin meant the population voting themselves money or the representatives voting themselves money - especially as even in the quote this is about the republic, not a democracy (Bear in mind that at that time there wasn't universal suffrage at that time).
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#53 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 16 2010

@Fool

Should I print all the quotes again? Perhaps I should run off and spend more time and find a new dozen or three that say the same thing? I have yet to see anyone provide a quote that even comes close to hinting that the Founders were frustrated by a lack of ability to fit government run health care into the Constitution. You can't. They weren't. In fact, most of them were probably all too aware of the incredibly abject failure of socialism at Plymouth colony in the 1620's. Since the Progressives have white washed that story out of American history classes, many Americans today are ignorant of the story. http://mises.org/daily/336

In any case (ie: the possibility of the Franklin quote being improperly attributed.), the Jefferson quote says it quite concisely.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#54 Post by tkobo » Mar 16 2010

Well, if heaven did exist,you'd continue to earn entry points thru patience alone Light :wink:

Heres one i really like and that fits the current issue to a "T".
"Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now."
Made when addressing the issue of the State Religion of Virginia in 1784( in his book "Notes on Virginia") to which he was vehemently opposed to ,preferring his own "Act for establishing Religious Freedom" proposed circa 1779, but not ratified til 1786.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#55 Post by Lea » Mar 17 2010

Lightbringer wrote:You need to spend another year or two studying English, because you apparently do not understand it.
It is that I do here.
Lightbringer wrote:What Dr. Williams is talking about is Taking from one citizen, and giving to another.
Didn't it occur to you that taxes do it, "Taking from one citizen, and giving to another"?
Lightbringer wrote:He is not talking about taxation that is used for legitimate governmental responsibilities. Your claim of "no taxes at all" is completely, 100% wrong. You should remember that, since I have explained it to you at least 1/2 dozen times. Stop drinking so much vodka before you post.
It seems to me that you begin to interpret that phrase. Doesn't an assessors take away your money? Doesn't "legitimate governmental responsibilities" mean payment to someone of actually not earned money? If doesn't mean, what differ health care from government rescuers, firefighters, etc.?
Lightbringer wrote:Thank you for proving my point in a clear and concise manner. You do not understand "Rights". Health Care is a government hand out. It is a bribe that the government gives to you. It is a way to control your actions, what you eat, drink, and do. Here is a little test. If the government runs short of money, could they cut back on Health Care services offered? No government official should be able to "cut back" on your rights. But since they "gave" them to you, they can also take them away. Education? Did you have the right to choose your school? Or were you assigned to learn what they decided you would learn? They installed a brainwashing system designed to churn out whatever sort of workers they needed, and called it a "Right".

"Rights" do not involve taking money from anyone. You do not pay taxes to "earn" your "Rights". They are something you have that does not cost anybody anything, and they are not gifts from some bureaucrat. Your vaunted Russian Education has taught you lies and distortions to serve the State. If the government has to tax someone to pay for it, and the government decides exactly what it will consist of from year to year, then it is not a Right, it is a social welfare entitlement.
You narrowly understand the Rights and it's your lack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... man_rights
Lightbringer wrote:As for the Novgorodian Democracy... The rest of the Russian Principalities wiped them out as quickly as possible to keep such scandalous ideas from spreading to their serfs. Not exactly a shining example of Russian enlightenment. I imagine the Novgordians (Novgorods?) only discovered the concept through their trading enterprise, and adopted the practice simply to seem civilized enough to convince Europeans to trade with them. I could be wrong, but in either case, it wasn't exactly a sweeping movement that encompassed the whole of Russian civilization.
Simple the Novgorod republic has not sustained a competition. It is seditious thought but I really think that democracy isn't always most effective regime. Didn't you think of how the regime is connected with world around, with geographical and cultural features?
tkobo wrote:And there we have both the sum of and motivation for your promotion of socialism and worse to other countries.Having failed miserably due to your own failed philosophy to defeat the west other ways,you turn to trying to do so by trying to turn us into you.

Not being willing or able to climb up to our level, you seek to convince us to go down to yours.
Do you actually think what I wish and I CAN to direct YOUR health care, at least one micron? You must be crazy...
tkobo wrote:Problem then, as well as now, was history wasnt on your side.And our working class not only didnt bring us low, but instead made us stronger and still does.With tons people from all over the world trying to join us.
On the other hand it was YOUR working class that brought YOUR communist regime down.Finally fed up with the failed philosophy preached to them by psyhcopaths, that kept them serfs waiting in lines for scraps
People have refused communism, but took socialist measures with pleasure. Especially welfare states.
tkobo wrote:And to try and do so thru healthcare,which is incredibly funny considering how UN-free the corrupt and graft laden russian healthcare has been and still is...
Do you understand what differ Russian health care from Soviet?
Russian health care is rape child, chimera of socialistic and capitalistic ways breeding. It contains lacks of both regimes. E.g. I send my wife to Israel (I ask not to invade and not to drop nuclear bombs there in April :-) ) because we don't accept quality of free and paid medical treatment.

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#56 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 17 2010

Your English has improved since we started this discussion. However, when you completely ignore my comments and make the same assertions over and over again, I have to wonder if it is your English comprehension, or simply you being difficult on purpose. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please pay me the respect of dropping the tactic if you are intentionally "misunderstanding" me.
Lea wrote:Didn't it occur to you that taxes do it, "Taking from one citizen, and giving to another"?
There is a big difference in taking tax money and building an army (navy etc.) to defend the entire country and taking tax money and giving it to an individual for some entitlement program like welfare or health care. More on this below.
Lea wrote:It seems to me that you begin to interpret that phrase. Doesn't an assessors take away your money? Doesn't "legitimate governmental responsibilities" mean payment to someone of actually not earned money? If doesn't mean, what differ health care from government rescuers, firefighters, etc.?
"Legitimate Governmental Responsibilities" do NOT include giving away money to people who have not earned it. I shall try to explain the difference between Health Care and Army/Police/Firefighters. The last three are examples of services that ensure the safety of the entire community. They are also examples of services that are both too expensive, and would be less effective if handled by private companies. They are similar to roads, sewers, and water systems, except with a much more interactive human component. While a fire truck might be subsidized by wealthy citizens when it puts out a fire on the poor side of town, the fire department was not created only to extinguish fires for poor people. The Fire Department was not designed to take money from rich people and give it specifically to poor people. It was designed to extinguish fires for the entire community. If a rich person wished to live in a modest house, and spend frugally, he would not be paying any more taxes towards the fire department than a less wealthy citizen. Rich people do not have private fire extinguishing companies that ignore fires in the poor part of town. Fire Fighting is not a product, it is a government service that protects the town itself. Health Care is a product. If someone without insurance has a heart attack, the cardiac condition is not going to spread and destroy the whole neighborhood or town. When you ask me to pay for a fire department, I am protecting myself and my property. When you ask me to pay for my neighbor's health care, you are asking me to pay his bills, with no benefit to myself at all. Individuals can afford a doctor bill (with the help of a charity if need be). Individuals can NOT afford to build a fire station, buy trucks, and hire the fire fighters. When someone demands that other people pay his/her doctor bills, they might as well be demanding that other people pay their rent, buy their food, give them spending cash, or provide them with transportation. All of those things are existing welfare state programs, and all of them stink to high heaven. The difference between paying for a fire department, and paying for someone else' health care is the difference between community and an individual. Government has the job of providing the community with services that are unfeasible for individuals to provide for themselves.

Lunch over... More later...

-Light
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#57 Post by fool » Mar 17 2010

services that ensure the safety of the entire community. They are also examples of services that are both too expensive, and would be less effective if handled by private companies.
Sounds like health care to me...
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#58 Post by tkobo » Mar 17 2010

This would be funny were it not so rediculous.
Its like finding out the comedy sketch you thought you were watching is not a sketch at all :lol: Reading this sillyness is like listening to enron executives for investment tips.

Enron exec: Buy enron stock, all is well
Lea:Strong bear of communism is best,socialism will bury ebil capitalistic regimes !

Healthcare under the soviet union was even worse then, than it is now under the semi -democracy.From the continual failure of the "five year plans" to the easily reconized failure of government to effectively run healthcare on the scraps it had left over after it spent on everything esle.
The system thus depended entirely on budgetary allocations as line items in the budget. More often than not, the health care system suffered from low priority and was financed on what came to be known as the residual principle. After all other needs had been met, whatever was left would go to health care. Most physicians (the majority of whom were women) were poorly paid compared to other occupations, and many medical facilities were short of funds to purchase equipment and supplies or to maintain them.
You can in fact still see most of the soviet healthcare system at work,just look at N.K.s healthcare system.Or just read first hand accounts of it's "greatness" under soviet use.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007382
(circa1970)
Those who were able to bribe the nurse or orderly would get better service, but Mom didn't know and hadn't brought anything. One woman kept giving the nurse fruit so that she'd yell at her less and give her what she needed. Mom could only beg, the whole time feeling as if she'd done something wrong.
In America, women often remember abortion as traumatic. My mother barely remembers her two abortions (Russian birth control), but she can't forget a single traumatic detail of her children's births.
Gee, we can we all get in line, litterally,for that ? :lol:

As for which one of us is crazy, ill put my money on the one still seeing bread,milk ,and honey being freely handed out in excess at the front of the socialists lines.

http://mises.org/daily/3650
The system had many decades to work, but widespread apathy and low quality of work paralyzed the healthcare system. In the depths of the socialist experiment, healthcare institutions in Russia were at least a hundred years behind the average US level. Moreover, the filth, odors, cats roaming the halls, drunken medical personnel, and absence of soap and cleaning supplies added to an overall impression of hopelessness and frustration that paralyzed the system. According to official Russian estimates, 78 percent of all AIDS victims in Russia contracted the virus through dirty needles or HIV-tainted blood in the state-run hospitals.
Irresponsibility, expressed by the popular Russian saying "They pretend they are paying us and we pretend we are working," resulted in appalling quality of service, widespread corruption, and extensive loss of life. My friend, a famous neurosurgeon in today's Russia, received a monthly salary of 150 rubles — one third of the average bus driver's salary.

In order to receive minimal attention by doctors and nursing personnel, patients had to pay bribes. I even witnessed a case of a "nonpaying" patient who died trying to reach a lavatory at the end of the long corridor after brain surgery. Anesthesia was usually "not available" for abortions or minor ear, nose, throat, and skin surgeries. This was used as a means of extortion by unscrupulous medical bureaucrats.
To improve the statistics concerning the numbers of people dying within the system, patients were routinely shoved out the door before taking their last breath.
After seventy years of socialism, 57 percent of all Russian hospitals did not have running hot water, and 36 percent of hospitals located in rural areas of Russia did not have water or sewage at all.
Not even the best of the qoutes this ex-peoples deputy puts forth.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#59 Post by Balthagor » Mar 17 2010

fool wrote:
services that ensure the safety of the entire community. They are also examples of services that are both too expensive, and would be less effective if handled by private companies.
Sounds like health care to me...
yeah, me too.

BTW Tkobo, I don't really care what the US does, but I often hear "we don't want privatized healthcare, that sucks", my responses are generally to rebut that I don't think the Canadian Healthcare System sucks. You guys can move to a lottery system if you really want, it's not my country. I just don't like the way our country does things to be constantly vilified.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#60 Post by Lightbringer » Mar 17 2010

@Fool and Balthagor

Y'all didn't read my post at all after that line did you? Does a man with a broken arm threaten my safety? Then how does paying for his medical care ensure my safety? Does getting my drinking water from the same creek that the town dumps it's sewage into threaten my safety? Then paying taxes for water treatment and sewage disposal ensures my safety. (see? this game is very simple!) Can I afford to pay a doctor to set my broken arm, even without insurance? Yes. Can I afford to build my own private sewage treatment plant if my neighbor craps in my drinking water supply? Not likely. I already know y'all are going to bring up plagues and such. Think about it. Public sanitation prevents a vast majority of those public health problems. That is why I do not complain about taxes for clean water, trash collection, and public drainage and mosquito spraying. Childhood diseases? immunizations are such a tiny % of your lifetime medical experience, that socializing over them is laughable. Who invented/discovered all the vaccines anyway? I can tell you with some confidence, it wasn't socialized medical doctors. What y'all are actually saying is that it is Government's responsibility to limit excellent health care to the very very Rich and government honchos. Crappy, dirty free clinics are for the proles, keep those scum away from their betters.
Lea wrote:You narrowly understand the Rights and it's your lack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... man_rights
Actually, although that WIKI article describes it much more comprehensively than I did, it says the same exact thing I did. I understand them perfectly, and the article explains the differences between what I consider a "right" and what is a bought and paid for government bribe.
Opponents of the indivisibility of human rights argue that economic, social and cultural rights are fundamentally different from civil and political rights and require completely different approaches. Economic, social and cultural rights are argued to be:

* positive, meaning that they require active provision of entitlements by the state (as opposed to the state being required only to prevent the breach of rights)
* resource-intensive, meaning that they are expensive and difficult to provide
* progressive, meaning that they will take significant time to implement
* vague, meaning they cannot be quantitatively measured, and whether they are adequately provided or not is difficult to judge
* ideologically divisive/political, meaning that there is no consensus on what should and shouldn't be provided as a right
* socialist, as opposed to capitalist
* non-justiciable, meaning that their provision, or the breach of them, cannot be judged in a court of law
* aspirations or goals, as opposed to real 'legal' rights

Similarly civil and political rights are categorized as:

* negative, meaning the state can protect them simply by taking no action
* cost-free
* immediate, meaning they can be immediately provided if the state decides to
* precise, meaning their provision is easy to judge and measure
* non-ideological/non-political
* capitalist
* justiciable
* real 'legal' rights
The problem is that you all insist that "Economic, social and cultural" government benefits are somehow "Rights". I disagree. Your article even accidentally points out the difference...
Some Western cultures have often given priority to civil and political rights,... Similarly the ex Soviet bloc countries and Asian countries have tended to give priority to economic, social and cultural rights, but have often failed to provide civil and political rights.
When you think of endemic Human Rights violations, do you think of Europe and America? Or do you think of Soviet Russian Gulags and East Asian killing fields? Thus connecting civil and political rights to human rights. Amnesty International hasn't gotten the memo that failing to provide your population with socialized health care and free housing is a human rights violation. :wink:

The United Nations can declare that Free Money is a human right, but that does not make it so. Your "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" is a pompous socialist tract written by a corrupt and impotent collection of thuggish dictators and left wing crooks. I would not urinate on the U.N. if it's guts were on fire. I might urinate on the UDHR even if it were not on fire. In other words, I disagree with it's premise. :lol:
Lea wrote:Didn't you think of how the regime is connected with world around, with geographical and cultural features?
Yes. Novgorod was on the western edge of a vast and barbaric wasteland where "human rights" meant the most common sword arm that would slice off your head. As I said several posts ago. Russians have never in history been exposed to having basic human rights. If it wasn't the Mongols smashing them, it was the Czars' (Tzar? which do Russians use?) Cossacks riding them down, or the Soviets locking them up in gulags and starving them across the Ukraine, or forcing them to work to death in factories for a crappy apartment and some cheap vodka. I was not insulting Russians. I was empathizing with them for suffering such brutality for so many centuries.
Lea wrote:I send my wife to Israel (I ask not to invade and not to drop nuclear bombs there in April :-) ) because we don't accept quality of free and paid medical treatment.
Yet you somehow suggest that such crappy treatment that you flee a thousand miles to escape it is something that the United States should strive for? That such medical malpractice is a "Human Right"?

Oh... you might want to ask Ahmadinehjad about that "invading and nuking" thing. Obama hates Israel, but I doubt he will openly attack them. :wink:

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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