Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

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Lightbringer
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#106 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 09 2010

Incontrovertible proof that the Obamunists just want to kill Grandma!!!

From the mouth of Donald Berwick, Obama's nominee for the head of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS).
I am romantic about the [British] National Health Service; I love it.
If we could magically spread NHS throughout the U.S., it would lead to 125,000 more cancer deaths per year.

Details: http://wolffiles.blogspot.com/2010/06/o ... oning.html

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#107 Post by fool » Jun 09 2010

Bear in mind that you're spending nearly twice as much on health care as a percentage of GDP...

Basically, if you want a fair test then increase the NHS budget by around 90% and then recheck the results.
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Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#108 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 09 2010

@Fool

My intention is not to belittle the U.K. for ineffective health care. As you state, y'all are not spending as much money, and you get what you pay for. What I am pointing out is that Obamacare aims to lead us down the same road by taking more and more freedom of choice from us, and paying for more and more of it with the tax payer's money. Only after we are deeply mired and unable to escape the single payer quicksand (and do not doubt that single payer is what they want) will the Dems really start in on the budget cuts and the "Death Panels". Y'all are merely a few steps ahead of us.

The reason I point out British health care failings is not a taunt at the British, but a warning bell alarm to the Americans.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#109 Post by tkobo » Jun 18 2010

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9GDTKEO3
Moments after the Senate acted, Medicare announced it would begin processing claims it has already received for June at the lower rate. The reason: the House cannot act on the fix until next week.

That means doctors, nurse practitioners, physical therapists and other providers who bill under Medicare's physician fee schedule will have to resubmit their claims if they want to be made whole, with added paperwork costs both for the providers and for taxpayers.

"Congress is playing Russian roulette with seniors' health care," Dr. Cecil B. Wilson, president of the American Medical Association, said in a statement. "This is no way to run a major health coverage program."
The health care the government already runs.....incredibly badly...
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#110 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 19 2010

This is what the "Universal Single Payer Heath Care" proponents always overlook. The same people would scream bloody murder if some corporation had a monopoly on something like this, but in the same breath, they advocate a monopoly run by the most inefficient organization possible. They can call the profit motive evil all they want, but it is much much better at punishing this sort of incompetence than some retard in a voting booth years or even months after this story drifts off the headlines.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#111 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 23 2010

A little bit "off topic"... but I don't feel a burning need to start a "Great Moments in Euro-Socialized Education!" thread just now. Basically, I would like anyone who supports government health care to try and tell me why health care won't exhibit the same trend as education.

http://biggovernment.com/acoulson/2010/ ... -not-more/
If you graduated from high school in 1980, your entire k-12 education cost your fellow taxpayers about $75,000, in 2009 dollars. But the graduating class of 2009 had roughly twice that amount lavished on their public school careers.
Image

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#112 Post by Balthagor » Jun 23 2010

Is that the per-capita cost or the total cost?
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#113 Post by fool » Jun 23 2010

I'd conclude the money is being misspent (although I don't know the specifics of your education), but bear in mind a few things:

1. Tests usually change over time, and the "score" can often mean very different things in different times.
2. The graph doesn't seem to have any trend with regards to politics.
3. Log scales are better, and might reveal such a trend if there is one
4. There's nothing there that says private education hasn't done the same thing. (Know a graph of that anywhere?)
5. Education very much depends on other factors as well.
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Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#114 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 24 2010

@Chris

If I understand your question correctly, that is the total cost per student.

@Fool

I'll have to dig around and find some private school numbers. The trend is probably similar, but not nearly so exaggerated. I do know (again I'd have to find the stats) that in most cases, private schools are spending much less per student and tend to get better educational results. The parents who use private schools are still on the hook for the same tax bill regardless, which is why so many people want a voucher system, and so (relatively) few parents use private schools.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#115 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 26 2010

@Fool
Over the past forty years, public school employment has risen 10 times faster than enrollment (see chart). There are only 9 percent more students today, but nearly twice as many public school employees.
My main point was not to rip educational standards in public schools. What I was trying to point out was that we are spending more and more and more and more money just to keep treading water. Here is a link that shows comparative "pricing" between public, private, charter (privatized "public" schools), and Catholic schools. http://www.edreform.com/Fast_Facts/K12_Facts/ (scroll down about 2/3's) They have links to the charts and such. You will notice that public schools are the most expensive, and they do not provide any educational advantage for the extra money.

My original question was can anyone argue that even if (a very big IF) health care quality does not go down, why should we expect that nationalizing the system will not cause massive increases in the overall cost? The facts show that ever since State and Federal involvement in education began increasing, so has the cost without any actual benefit. I realize that the two things are "apples and oranges", but the basic lesson about bureaucracy is relevant.

-Light
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#116 Post by fool » Jun 26 2010

Well, from the information there, private schools seem to have a higher staff:student ratio, along with a lower tuition fee than public school expenditure. In that case, are they subsidised?
"All warfare is based on deception...
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#117 Post by tkobo » Jun 26 2010

Public schools have been a disaster for years,and getting worse all the time.My mom was a teacher,some of my close friends over the years have been teachers,and ive worked with alot of them (as a lot of teachers take second jobs in retail).

Talk to one and they will defend themselves and the public system to ridiculous levels.BUT get 3 or more in the same room and start the same conversation and you'll hear a completely different stance from them.I cant count the amount of times ive heard teachers talk about the public education system the same way the public does,when talking among themselves.
And get a group of retired teachers and sit back in awe at the responses.You think the public has little trust in the public education system,wait til you hear a bunch of retired teachers tear into it.

A large part of the problem is of course a large amount of the students.Which the system has never found a way to push past their lack of desire to learn.And since its a job to the teachers,and a hard one to do right to begin with,the teachers are all too willing to accept the failures instead of working harder at fixing them.And the system has nothing in place to help with either issue.

By the way, ive been in both private and public school,and the two dont compare at all.Something that many dont mention, or possibly even realize,is that private schools have a less stressful feel to them.Where public schools have a chaotic feel,private school has a far more "in control " feel to it.There was a true feeling of supervision in the private school that changed the whole experience.
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#118 Post by Lightbringer » Jun 26 2010

fool wrote:Well, from the information there, private schools seem to have a higher staff:student ratio, along with a lower tuition fee than public school expenditure. In that case, are they subsidised?
I am not sure whether they get any property tax breaks, or other indirect types of subsidies, but they do not receive any direct payment of tax money "per student enrolled" (leastwise not as far as I am aware). The "staff:student ratio" you are referring to is teacher:student. By that I mean that public schools have more administrative personnel, and most public school districts have enormous, overpaid administrative bureaucracies. They also have powerful teacher's unions that provide such enlightened services as ensuring that child molesters, addicts and drunks, and incompetents are not fired. Think "Catholic Priest child abuse cover-up", and translate it into a school setting. The Unions also oppose pretty much any educational reform that might have a chance of improving things. Their only apparent solution is higher pay and more personnel.

@Tkobo

The reason that private schools aren't as stressful? Sociopaths, psychopaths, suicidal, homicidal, drug addicted, drug dealing, and/or highly disruptive students can simply be shown the door. See Ya! In today's PC, "everyone gets a participation trophy", "I am suing the school over Johnny's bad report card!!" world, they don't even dare/bother failing the scumbags, much less throw them the hell out of school. Is it any surprise that public schools are stressful? After all they are also insane asylums and juvenile prison facilities too. The Progressives have to brainwash kids into the proper mindset somewhere you know!! Back in my day, we got our ass whupped a few times, suspended for a few weeks, then sent home for the year if we persisted.

-Light
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#119 Post by tkobo » Jun 28 2010

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... feedburner
The state's Board of Registered Nursing has discovered that some 3,500 of its nurses have been punished for misconduct by other states — hundreds even had their licenses revoked — while maintaining clean licenses in California.

The board's discovery was prompted by a Times/ProPublica investigation last year that found hundreds of instances in which California nurses had been sanctioned elsewhere for sexual abuse, neglect, rampant drug use and criminality but could work freely in California.
But..... but... the government is sooooo "good" at running healthcare ....chuckle tm
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Re: Great Moments in Nationalized Health Care...

#120 Post by Lightbringer » Jul 05 2010

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf ... _insu.html
Starting that year, the bill levies a $3,000-per-employee penalty on companies whose workers pay more than 9.5 percent of household income in premiums for company-provided insurance.
-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill

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