Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

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Lightbringer
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lightbringer »

@w00tang

No, we have no national sales tax. Each of the individual states has one except for Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon. If I recall correctly, the Feds left it alone because of the (by design) heavy workload of the state governments. That was how the Republic was supposed to work. If you wanted to be a socialist, you could move to California or Massachusetts or wherever. If you wanted the other end of the spectrum or something in between, you could go to someplace that fit your style. It still functions that way to a degree, but the ever bloating Federal government is doing it's best to usurp the state's rights and responsibilities.

@Lea

Thanks for the lighthearted break in the "debate". I'll save my longer version of "exploitation vs. opportunity" for later. I have to go let my boss exploit my labor so that I have the opportunity to pay my bills. :wink:

@Feltan - Been paying attention to Massachusetts? :lol: (knock on wood!)
-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Feltan »

The Khan wrote: Skin Color or behaviour? I do not remember Obama ordering the American "disenfranchised" to slaughter the rich and make class warfare.
Pale. Pale as in the color of death. So, mostly behavior or more precisely -- policy.

And, if you are unaware, class warfare is stock and trade for the current administration.

Regards,
Feltan

P.S. Light, we shall see. I am not holding my breath, but if there was any argument to be made for modern day miracles -- a Republican Senator from Mass. would certainly qualify.
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lightbringer »

@Khan

Feltan is right on this one. Every day, sometimes every hour, the Whitehouse or Congress releases some statement to the effect that "Rich people are to blame!" or "We are going to tax/regulate/stop the rich because they are to blame!" Few notice that their definition of "rich" includes most of the middle class, and that no one outside of the Uber Rich and those "connected" will be able to avoid or afford their punitive measures. So in reality, they are declaring war on the middle class. Strangely enough, the middle class was the main target of the Russian "Progressives" as well. :roll:

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lea »

Feltan wrote:Such tripe as "Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks" is as evil as it is wrong.
Agreed, phrase is evil. But is it really wrong?
Feltan wrote:Ask an American -- most will soon be able to tell you that the only difference between Marx and Obama, is that Marx is just a whiter shade of pale.
According to our stereotypes, the most of Americans will ask me: "Who it is Marx?"
From outside Marx and Obama's comparison looks very strange. "Philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, communist, and revolutionary" - and one in many politicians, presidents USA.
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Feltan »

Lea wrote:
Feltan wrote:Such tripe as "Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks" is as evil as it is wrong.
Agreed, phrase is evil. But is it really wrong?


Lea,

Yes it is wrong. It is dead wrong. Capital is life blood of the economy. Capital allows banks to lend, which expands industry, buys houses and cars, extends consumer credit -- all good things in moderation. Viewing capital as dead labor is an early 19th century concept based on class envy. Additionally, captial is property -- the essence of liberty is property rights. Without property rights, everything else collapses.
Lea wrote:
Feltan wrote:Ask an American -- most will soon be able to tell you that the only difference between Marx and Obama, is that Marx is just a whiter shade of pale.
According to our stereotypes, the most of Americans will ask me: "Who it is Marx?"
From outside Marx and Obama's comparison looks very strange. "Philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, communist, and revolutionary" - and one in many politicians, presidents USA.
I'll give the point about American steryotypes; you are probably correct. Most Americans couldn't tell you who Marx was, nor what he stood for. We have our progressive education system to thank for that one.

However, on the second point I disagree. Obviously we are talking across generations and continents and races; however, President Obama is more of a disciple of true Marxism than Stalin was (or Brehznev for that matter). President Obama is a big Government proponent -- and I expect to hear him talk about the plight of the proletariet during his next speech. :-)

Regards,
Feltan
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by The Khan »

Some of my American friends over the MSN are saying that Democrats lost the senate majority or something...what happened over there just now?
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lea »

Feltan wrote:Yes it is wrong. It is dead wrong. Capital is life blood of the economy. Capital allows banks to lend, which expands industry, buys houses and cars, extends consumer credit -- all good things in moderation. Viewing capital as dead labor is an early 19th century concept based on class envy. Additionally, captial is property -- the essence of liberty is property rights. Without property rights, everything else collapses.
1st, I work in a banking so it is not necessary to explain me simple things. 2nd, without property rights everything else will not collapses but will be another (you mustn't consider itself as a unique variant or the Universe centre). 3rd, what has Marx told minus emotions? The labour is necessary for beginning and reproduction of the capital. Do you not agree with it?
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

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The Khan wrote:Some of my American friends over the MSN are saying that Democrats lost the senate majority or something...what happened over there just now?
Not quite. There was a special election in Massachusetts yesterday to replace Senator Kennedy who died while in office. The Republicans won the seat -- which is nearly unbelievable for the state of Massachusetts. This is being described in the most extraordinary terms -- a huge set back for Obama. Last year at this time, you would have been committed to an insane asylum for suggesting that a Republican would win a seat in the Senate from this state -- it had been held by the Kennedy's since the early 1950's.

That leaves the Senate with a 59 Democrat and 41 Republican balance. The Democrats still have the majority.

However, Senate operating rules require a vote of 60 to stop debate on an issue. So, the Republicans can effectively keep debating an issue forever, unless one of them joins the Democrats to stop the debate. Keeping a debate open to stall a vote is called a "fillibuster" and has been used by the minority party as a tool since the founding of America.

Just recently, the Senate voted 60-40 to advance to a vote on the Health Care Bill. That bill is in conference right now to iron out differences with the House of Representative's Bill, and will come back to the Senate for another vote.

Having 60 votes in the Senate is called a super majority, which is what the Democrats lost yesterday.

Regards,
Feltan
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Feltan »

Lea wrote:
Feltan wrote:Yes it is wrong. It is dead wrong. Capital is life blood of the economy. Capital allows banks to lend, which expands industry, buys houses and cars, extends consumer credit -- all good things in moderation. Viewing capital as dead labor is an early 19th century concept based on class envy. Additionally, captial is property -- the essence of liberty is property rights. Without property rights, everything else collapses.
1st, I work in a banking so it is not necessary to explain me simple things. 2nd, without property rights everything else will not collapses but will be another (you mustn't consider itself as a unique variant or the Universe centre). 3rd, what has Marx told minus emotions? The labour is necessary for beginning and reproduction of the capital. Do you not agree with it?
Lea,

If you work in banking, then you well understand that wealth starts with labor, which is turned into capital. A tree standing in the forrest only becomes valuable when someone cuts it down and turns the wood into lumber.

However, capital is not bad; it is not evil. It is necessary and something to manage.

Marx said little minus emotion -- his hatred for the wealthy dripped off the page of everything he wrote.

Regards,
Feltan
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by The Khan »

Feltan wrote: Marx said little minus emotion -- his hatred for the wealthy dripped off the page of everything he wrote.
I hate to be the devil's advocate, but he isn't an independent force. For every raging communist, there is almost always an "evil capitalist" that makes a normal person fill with an illogical hate for the wealthy. You think workers would riot if their livelihoods were secure and they had relatively acceptable lives? Ever read the despicable living conditions for laborers during the 19th century? Especially during the Tzarist Russia?
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lea »

Feltan wrote:However, capital is not bad; it is not evil. It is necessary and something to manage.
You're right, and Marx thought the same. He considered as evil a distribution of profit, surplus value (particularly).
Feltan wrote:Marx said little minus emotion -- his hatred for the wealthy dripped off the page of everything he wrote.
Come on, it is not necessary to exaggerate. You shouldn't confuse your disagreement with another's hate.
The Khan wrote:I hate to be the devil's advocate, but he isn't an independent force. For every raging communist, there is almost always an "evil capitalist" that makes a normal person fill with an illogical hate for the wealthy. You think workers would riot if their livelihoods were secure and they had relatively acceptable lives? Ever read the despicable living conditions for laborers during the 19th century? Especially during the Tzarist Russia?
Marx wrote not for Russia and saw its backward, barbarous state. It is better to read the book of its friend Engels: "The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844". I don't think that you will like that condition.
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by The Khan »

No more cap and trade and health care? I think Light will be happy.
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lightbringer »

The Khan wrote:No more cap and trade and health care? I think Light will be happy.
Scott Brown's win in Massachusetts doesn't make those things impossible, only less likely, and more easily resisted. More important is the fact that a conservative, who spoke openly about conservative values and opposing Obamacare etc, was elected in that state. It is somewhat equivalent of a Christian preacher convincing the Saudis to change their national religion to Christianity. It is strong evidence that normal people in America do not want a big, bloated government. It is as if they read this thread and then, with their ballots, said, "We want a "5". Obama and Congress promised us a "5". We now see they meant "10". We will elect a "2" to slow them down. "

...and yes, I am very happy about it. :D

-Light
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by Lightbringer »

Regardless of how responsible Bush may have been for the Democrat controlled Congress from 2006 onward, and the recession that they gave us, I believe this chart may clear up some of the left over misunderstanding that the United States is suffering from anything other than "Obama's Recession".

http://biggovernment.com/2010/01/13/ame ... -hangover/

OOOOOH! Pretty colors! Seriously though, read the story under the graph as well.

-Light
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” -Winston Churchill
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Re: Soviet zests (topic change: Social/Capital/Communism)

Post by The Khan »

Lightbringer wrote:It is as if they read this thread and then, with their ballots, said, "We want a "5". Obama and Congress promised us a "5". We now see they meant "10". We will elect a "2" to slow them down. "

-Light
At least they have the guts, political rights and intelligence to react. Ours is mostly

"The leader candidate who gives the most alms(which is a fraction of those that were embezzled from the state) wants"x" number of state size, so we live in preparation to the "x" number"

You were our allies for 60 years, and only used us as a military proxy. Shame on you. You could have taught and given the tools to our people to not to fear the state, but to make the state fear us.
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