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PostPosted: Aug 14 2009 
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First, I'd like to congratulate Johan and the rest of his team for their accomplishments with Hearts of Iron 3. Completion of a project like this is always a challenge and when I look at the game I see lots of evidence of the hard work they have put into the game.

Second, I would like to be clear that the purpose of this thread is not to waste time on discussions of which game is better. If ppl would like to indicate a preference for one game or the other they are welcome to it but what I'm looking to discuss is features that are common to both games but implemented differently. Our two titles share many aspects and I'd like to do some analysis.

My observations for now will be limited since I've only had time to play a couple hours of HoI3 so far. Having not played the previous versions, I'm finding it's a slow learning process for me but I hope others will help add to this;

1) Espionage exists in both games, but is done rather differently. One element I noticed was that HoI allows spies to be used to affect domestic opinion of other regions. I find this an interesting idea but haven't played with it enough yet.

2) Units on map in HoI3 switch to tokens when zoomed out with some information vs. our 3D models all the time. No real opinion yet of one system vs. the other but a concept we've seen before such as in Sins of the Solar Empires or Supreme Commander. I'm still learning what information their tokens contain.

3) A World Map exists in both games but I'm finding navigation much harder in HoI3. I miss the ability to map drag the way we allow and I also think the zoom focus being the mouse cursor is a much better system.

4) Selected buttons in HoI don't seem to have an effect to show they are selected. When you're selecting diplomacy region filters there is no indication which filter is on. In SR such buttons are outlined or brighter to show selection. I've found that confusing at times in HoI

5) Names on map in HoI when zoomed in is a very nice, we've had ideas for "names on map" before but they seem to have found a good system.

Please add more but try and keep info on a given feature brief, if something is for really big discussion as a concept it should be in either our development section or HoI's forum for detailed discussion.

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PostPosted: Aug 14 2009 
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Hi Chris,

You know, just last night I was making similar observations. Saying to myself, "Damn, I hope someone makes a mod for a modern day HOI3 in the future."

I note you focus on map issues and "presentation." Understandable. However, what I dug into right away was OOB, production, heirarchy and types of units. For me, the map issues you point out are true, but basically inconsequential to the enjoyment of the game. I can maneuver around the map, and the display of areas is just fine althought different than SR2020 -- both work.

The difference is in the military: how it is portrayed, how it fights, how it is recruited, developed and deployed. The heirarchy system is almost exactly what I recommended way back when commenting on SR2010. It gives a real good immersion level, and you actually feel as if you are in control of a military force, not the gaggle of uncoordinated battalions I have so often critisized in the SR series. They even allow you to choose the composition of division sized units! What an Easter Egg in a game that will occupy a good amount of my free time for the next few years! This moddelling of the military will make customers happy -- it will keep them coming back, and motivate the modding community.

However, the similarities in scope between HOI3 and SR2020 are unmistakable. Also, both use a real time clock instead of game turns -- better for online play (but I suspect both products will see little of this since games take a while), but less applicable to PBEM which would synch with size and scope of the games.

The political/espionage aspect of the two different games is a wash. Both have advantages and disadvantages -- both give options, both are good in their own way.

The economic model and building of facilities in SR2020 is, IMHO, much superior. In HOI3, it takes far too long and is too expensive -- to the point it is rarely used. And, if it is used, the results of such an investment don't justify the expediture of resources in most cases. In essence, the HOI3 model for this is less realistic than SR2020 and contributes less to the game.

But the military is the difference. HOI3 is a "wargame" while SR2020 remains an "RTS" style of play. HOI3 is brigade and division size, which is more appropriate for the scale of the map. Headquarters and heirarchy lend authenticity to the units, and cannot be ignored. Etc.

Of course, in a world of fantasy and dreams, I'd like to take parts of each game and combine them into the (near) perfect world conflict game!

Regards,
Feltan

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PostPosted: Aug 14 2009 
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I find Hoi3 much more complicated. The I can't merge my units :-(

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PostPosted: Aug 14 2009 
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@Feltan

yes, realize they use more of a system like what you prefer, I'm still learning it so will comment on my opinion between the two at a later date.

Interesting to hear their "upgrading your nation" elements are secondary...

Anyone have thoughts between the research models of the game?

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PostPosted: Aug 14 2009 
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Balthagor wrote:
First, I'd like to congratulate Johan and the rest of his team for their accomplishments with Hearts of Iron 3. Completion of a project like this is always a challenge and when I look at the game I see lots of evidence of the hard work they have put into the game.

Second, I would like to be clear that the purpose of this thread is not to waste time on discussions of which game is better. If ppl would like to indicate a preference for one game or the other they are welcome to it but what I'm looking to discuss is features that are common to both games but implemented differently. Our two titles share many aspects and I'd like to do some analysis.

My observations for now will be limited since I've only had time to play a couple hours of HoI3 so far. Having not played the previous versions, I'm finding it's a slow learning process for me but I hope others will help add to this;

1) Espionage exists in both games, but is done rather differently. One element I noticed was that HoI allows spies to be used to affect domestic opinion of other regions. I find this an interesting idea but haven't played with it enough yet.

2) Units on map in HoI3 switch to tokens when zoomed out with some information vs. our 3D models all the time. No real opinion yet of one system vs. the other but a concept we've seen before such as in Sins of the Solar Empires or Supreme Commander. I'm still learning what information their tokens contain.

3) A World Map exists in both games but I'm finding navigation much harder in HoI3. I miss the ability to map drag the way we allow and I also think the zoom focus being the mouse cursor is a much better system.

4) Selected buttons in HoI don't seem to have an effect to show they are selected. When you're selecting diplomacy region filters there is no indication which filter is on. In SR such buttons are outlined or brighter to show selection. I've found that confusing at times in HoI

5) Names on map in HoI when zoomed in is a very nice, we've had ideas for "names on map" before but they seem to have found a good system.

Please add more but try and keep info on a given feature brief, if something is for really big discussion as a concept it should be in either our development section or HoI's forum for detailed discussion.

First of all Pdox should of spent about a month more on the game, it´s so buggy(but I think it was delibareate.)

1) the Spy system in hoi3 is good, but it lacks alot. I like effecting a specific city(sr2020) and do sabotage or recon in a near by attack route to get early warning on and attack or destroy something to cause them a headache. What is good in the HOI3 system is that you have more options to effect the other nations, but when it comes to assigning them to missions, in hoi3 you can only give all your spies the same task while in SR2020 you can assign your spies moore freely.

2) I've been trying to find a way to (in options or somewhere) to make it so that you'll see the well animated solider when you soom out allso. So I like the sr2020 more, they have a larger sortiment of meshes/sprites.

3) I compleetly agree. First time i played the game I automaticly try to move arounde the map in the way in sr2020 :-)

4) no real comment, but i think they should indicate which is on and which not.

5) I don't think that this feature should be based on a game in the future, it fits for hoi3 cause it's 1936-1948(?) there fore you can read you history and know if it was that name during all that time, while basing this in sr2020 would have to really on guessing the plausible name in 2020.

-) tech systems: I like the SR2020 tech system more whit their tech levels and tech treeas it's much moore realistical, but it gives you a specific feeling when you practicly can "research" your own battleship class, when you can reseach specific parts.

-) The map it self in hoi3 is really in accurate and it annoys the hell out of me! it's like they have drawn up a bunch of provinces and named them from compairing a real map to them and in haste picked some close by names. But one thing that is much better in HOI3 about the map is when you zoom out and it looks like a old paper map in front of you :-) .

-) statistics: I think that the both games are on a equal foot when it comes to this, but they could + the others systems to eachother.

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PostPosted: Aug 15 2009 
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Kinda [_]OT

but:

I haven't been able to download the demo yet (I always get a corrupted copy)... Have anybody suscessfuly downloaded it? Where from?

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PostPosted: Aug 15 2009 
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Before I bought the game I searched around for some tech support forums to see what problems people where having with the game. Not seeing many people complaining about issues, I figure the game is playable. So I go ahead and buy it off of steam. So I get it installed and start it up, Then goto start a new game. Only to have it crash to desktop, Well ****. So then I adjust some settings and try it again. Rebooting inbetween tries. Still does not work. I go back to the para forums, and now that I have a CD key I go ahead and register it on thier forums. which then gives me access to thier tech support section. To which i discover there are allot of people having the same exact problem I have.

Now I understand when you have the rare CTD ingame that is hard to track down. You might need to release the game so you can get feedback from the comunity to fix the issue. However when the game CTD on startup, C'mon a lil quality control please.

Now I do have faith that they will evenualy fix this issue. But I dont want to spend my time trouble shooting this issue. And besides reading about the possible bug where saves dont work. I dont want to take part in that. In a couple months when it is fixed I will give it anouther go, In the meantime I have plenty time of other stuff todo.

Ohh and WTF is this spirit pack on steam about? They are charging a couple bucks for somthing as simple as that? Thats bullshit. now that SR2020 is on steam I should take my mod, and a few skins to the unit and sell it on there too, not.

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PostPosted: Aug 15 2009 
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Ruges wrote:
Before I bought the game I searched around for some tech support forums to see what problems people where having with the game. Not seeing many people complaining about issues, I figure the game is playable. So I go ahead and buy it off of steam. So I get it installed and start it up, Then goto start a new game. Only to have it crash to desktop, Well ****. So then I adjust some settings and try it again. Rebooting inbetween tries. Still does not work. I go back to the para forums, and now that I have a CD key I go ahead and register it on thier forums. which then gives me access to thier tech support section. To which i discover there are allot of people having the same exact problem I have.

Now I understand when you have the rare CTD ingame that is hard to track down. You might need to release the game so you can get feedback from the comunity to fix the issue. However when the game CTD on startup, C'mon a lil quality control please.

Now I do have faith that they will evenualy fix this issue. But I dont want to spend my time trouble shooting this issue. And besides reading about the possible bug where saves dont work. I dont want to take part in that. In a couple months when it is fixed I will give it anouther go, In the meantime I have plenty time of other stuff todo.

Ohh and WTF is this spirit pack on steam about? They are charging a couple bucks for somthing as simple as that? Thats bullshit. now that SR2020 is on steam I should take my mod, and a few skins to the unit and sell it on there too, not.
well, i think that theese issues and the "print" problem is a way to force people buy the game to get support and buy time for the digital sales from whitch they gett much more money from than "hard copies". Anyway, shouldn't this be about compairing features?
Edit: i'm trying to unregister my games not register!

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PostPosted: Aug 30 2009 
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Balthagor wrote:
My observations for now will be limited since I've only had time to play a couple hours of HoI3 so far. Having not played the previous versions, I'm finding it's a slow learning process for me but I hope others will help add to this;

1) Espionage exists in both games, but is done rather differently. One element I noticed was that HoI allows spies to be used to affect domestic opinion of other regions. I find this an interesting idea but haven't played with it enough yet.

2) Units on map in HoI3 switch to tokens when zoomed out with some information vs. our 3D models all the time. No real opinion yet of one system vs. the other but a concept we've seen before such as in Sins of the Solar Empires or Supreme Commander. I'm still learning what information their tokens contain.

Please add more but try and keep info on a given feature brief, if something is for really big discussion as a concept it should be in either our development section or HoI's forum for detailed discussion.


These are two of my favorite strategy games:
-Both are quite similar in scope and amount of control you have over multiple aspects of your nation.
-Manage Trade, Resources, Infrastructure, Research, Diplomacy, and War
-Both games display air and land units on the map as a single unit representing a division or air wing, and both represent naval ships as single unit for each ship.

I have been writing guides and overviews on both games recently, and the release of HOI 3 sparked my love for this genre (I had not done much gaming in past months). I recently updated and began playing supreme ruler 2020 again, and am eagerly waiting the 1.2 patch for Hearts of Iron 3. I spent multiple hours a day with Hearts of Iron 3 since it came out, and find it to me a very enjoyable game as is, with clear potential that is exciting to see future development.

This is much like Supreme Ruler 2020 at release, it was engrossing and entertaining, and clear it was going to turn into a classic with future updates. I put a hold on hearts of iron 3 guides until 1.2 is released next week. I had made 3 up to that point (map overview, how research works, and guide to brigade combination and unit creation) but want to wait to do a full review and guide to diplomacy and espionage when 1.2 is out, so the information will be more accurate and helpful.

Those guides are in my signature, and I'd really like some feed back on how I could improve those and my gaming blog in general.

Having gotten addicted to Supreme Ruler 2020 again, I wrote an initial introduction and overview of it's potential; as well as mentioning all the great improvements made to SR 2020 since release. I want to add to this guide in the near future when I can post more first hand experience with the gameplay and AI improvements, but this initial Supreme Ruler 2020 post should hopefully spark some interest in the upcoming gold release.

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PostPosted: Aug 30 2009 
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Thanks for the input, I'll check them out.

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PostPosted: Sep 27 2009 
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I got a HoI2 copy from a friend since I'm too much of a lazy ass to get it from a store, and I have been mindblown at the diverse and realistic study of leaders and their paradigms.

Atatürk died in 10th of November,1938,and then I turned Turkey to Fascism to overtake Balkans without much dissent and avoid consumer goods due to moribund industry (4% of Germany!!!), and was mindblown to see Ismet Inonu, the good old Kurdish moderate isolationist guy,replaced by Nihal Atsız, a not well known but extremely crazy fascist who believes anyone other than a Turk is the enemy. Other ministers also changed, with Alparslan Türkeş, Nihal Atsız's fanatical follower as Chief of Army.

Paradox surely did his homework. Same goes with many other countries.


EDIT: Paradox DID THE WORK:


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PostPosted: Sep 28 2009 
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I've noticed something in HoI 3 that is absoletly wrong and has nothing to do with reality. Why in God's name is tito :o ??? as a general for the Yugoslav ROYAL Army??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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PostPosted: Sep 29 2009 
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The Tito thing happened in the HoI2 too. Since they had no way to make sure that your Yugoslavia suddenly turned communist, you get Tito and his generals by some hidden event (I guess). They're not bad either, I got Tito to level 8 once (in HoI2). Can't comment much about HoI3 since I've only got the Demo but I do like country policies a lot.


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PostPosted: Sep 29 2009 
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So far...

Played Germany, reduced and scrapped Kriegsmarine to ass-nothing save for transports and subs(earlier experience reminds that German Kriegsmarine is dead already), Luftwaffe doesn't have a single strategic bomber, instead it has 10 (Geschwader) squadrons of stuka and 5 squadrons of Interceptors(forgot its name) which made some quite a bit experience from bombing africa and albania. Decided to build fortifications along USSR border and LEAVE the USSR, instead of subjugating Eastern Europe.

A stroke of extreme luck made me coup Turkey and bring Nihal Atsız(Paradox is awesome) to power and grab Middle East with transporting troops from Greek peninsula and Turkish allies.Iraq is MY puppet now since I sued for peace after driving all his troops to capital and conquering all else. I completely ignored Naval research, instead I built my first V-2 in June 1942. I bombard England for fun and lulz, tearing its factories and making every bit of US aid taste bitter. My alliances are tenuous (money went to 1 coup 1 Alliances(Turkey,Nationalist Spain) and research), rare materials are dire (9 grand with -50 every day)

I'm whipping US and UK across the Africa, and are simply, slowly, pushing towards Ukraine whenever a crack across the Soviet lines show. I mean, who the heck cares for the endless frozen wasteland of USSR? I'll just grab Ukraine and try holding it.

My Medium tanks are final technology, my Infantry 1941 style(soon 1943) and artillery brigades one beneath Semi-Modern. I am researching 3rd level Mechanized Inf, have the rocket assembly lines ready. Absolutely no advances in Air&Sea, pure land&radar&flak and some other tech with nonstop research team, and 2 lucky breakthroughs, one defect and "one tea-cup event".

2 Radar upgrades and a network of two radars across French coast, accompanied by 2 AA attached(minus one final level) 1943 garrisons AND 2 flak batteries, with Stukas and a couple of Sturmgeschütz-attached final-tech Panthers waiting. Next week another V-2 barrage will pound the British coast,s radars and a-a's

I will make operation overlord a nightmare. And Sealion, a reality.

However I had a LOT of ministers die and had two goddamn parades.


*caresses his collection of 3rd Reich postcards and stamps*

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PostPosted: Oct 05 2009 
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A couple of things I like from HoI3 (or other paradox games in general) that I would like to see in SR would be:

-When map is zoomed out far, you can still see the colours when in the political map mode. After zooming a bit out in SR colours on the map disappear.

-Usefulness of spies. While I like the fact that you can place them on the map, they need to watch out for enemies and can be used to spot enemies in SR, they could do so much more.

-The possibility to liberate countries, or have rebels create a new one. The core system used in most paradox games are really great and they keep the game from just going in the direction of more and more countries disappearing from the map. Also, a several countries can have cores on the same territory. Including ones that don't exist yet. I want to repeat again, that I really miss something like this in SR.

Balthagor wrote:
2) Units on map in HoI3 switch to tokens when zoomed out with some information vs. our 3D models all the time. No real opinion yet of one system vs. the other but a concept we've seen before such as in Sins of the Solar Empires or Supreme Commander. I'm still learning what information their tokens contain.

3) A World Map exists in both games but I'm finding navigation much harder in HoI3. I miss the ability to map drag the way we allow and I also think the zoom focus being the mouse cursor is a much better system.

4) Selected buttons in HoI don't seem to have an effect to show they are selected. When you're selecting diplomacy region filters there is no indication which filter is on. In SR such buttons are outlined or brighter to show selection. I've found that confusing at times in HoI

5) Names on map in HoI when zoomed in is a very nice, we've had ideas for "names on map" before but they seem to have found a good system.

I never really used the counters in HoI2 but in the third one I can't do without them, mostly because the sprites/models are really hard to distinguish when zoomed out, and it's confusing for me to have them switch back and forth. I love the zoom centered on the cursor in SR2020 it's a little awkward not having it in HoI3. Also thanks for clearing up why I was getting lost around the map mode filters in HoI3. :-)
The names on the map part works well in HoI3, but I think it would be tricky having them in SR2020 and that they might be difficult to read. Or if placed on top, be in the way of other things you want to see.

Still they're both good games, though HoI3 could definitely use a couple of more patches. So could SR2020 I guess.
I play them both (though more of Europa Universalis 3 than HoI3 until it's gotten patched up a bit more) and love them. So thanks for two great games. :-)


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