Euro socialists etc. (Split from Strange pricing)

[Miecznik]

the fellow euros fail to realize that their beloved socialism has a cost, and part of that cost is artificial barriers to trade in the form of tolls for imported goods.

Well, i'm not shure what's worse. The "Euro Socialism" or keeping an army of dirt poor "slaves" within your own borders. Both systems come at a cost.


-Miecznik

[rebelito]

well, one of the few frenchmen that had a brain (kiddin') was obviously a genius.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they cherish".
Voltaire

[Lightbringer]

Rebelito-

You are now my official favorite Euro!

Miecznik-

Our "dirt poor slaves" on average have a car or two, wide screen tvs and dvd players, home computers with internet, and A/C. Can y'all say the same for all those on the dole? Second point; Any "dirt poor slave" who cares to put any effort whatsoever into improving their lot in life is free to get training or education and move upward in society. We have 5% unemployment, and if you have any sort of technical training, you can find a "non slave job" in a matter of days. Perhaps not in every city, but then again, we are also free to move from place to place in search of bettering our lives. This training/education is not free, but in most cases, it can be had for next to nothing from community colleges if you are a "dirt poor slave".

El Slapper-

How much a year do you spend on 20% sales tax? How about income taxes? 30%? 40%? 50-60%? All that adds up to much much less than what we pay for private insurance, not to mention a few video games. Hell, if you can't pay for your child/pregnant wife to see a doctor, we have free clinics for that already in every major city and town, quite often funded by those "evil" rich people.

(no offense, but whenever I see documentaries about the US prison system, the US health system, the US education system, the homeless, the hoods, crime, drug use, etc., I'm happy that we don't have that here).

No offense taken. Just keep in mind we see plenty of documentaries about your social ills as well. We don't have hordes of poor, unemployed immigrants rioting and assaulting police for instance. Drug use is pretty universal. Homeless people are usually homeless because of mental problems, not lack of opportunity. Education is a mess because of how socialized it is, any privatized education (private schools, home schooling) performs at or above global top levels.

I could go on all day, but my point is that you all should dig a little deeper than just swallowing whatever propaganda you are spoon fed.

-Light

[el_slapper]

(.../...)
I could go on all day, but my point is that you all should dig a little deeper than just swallowing whatever propaganda you are spoon fed.

-Light

& same for you? Seems to me I am reading propaganda when reading you, you know..... I don't say your system is bad, I just say it's not the only one.

And for examples : you will always find counter-examples....."privatized railroads in the UK do not work" - "yes, but in NZ they work perfectly" - "public railroads in Poland do not work" - "yes but in France, they are very good, though less since they began limited privatization".....

few years ago, "Que Choisir", a consumer's assossiation did lead a huge inquiry upon school restaurants, with focuses on prices & food quality. And they made the difference between :
_restaurants run by the town council(so public-run & funded)
_restaurants run by the school itself(so public-run & funded)
_restaurants run by private firms, whatever way they were funded(usually a mix of public & private funding, though with great differences between places)

guess what? There were no differences. Nope, no differences. Same amount of bad hi-priced food on both systems, same amount of rather good restaurants on both systems. Conclusion : "wherever people are skilled & motivated, the result is OK, or even better - whatever is the financial choice; However, where people lack skills and/or motivation, no system can save the restaurant". Back to SR series, success does not depend on your strategy, but on the quality of the execution of the strategy, & to its adaptation to the events.

[Slappfisk]

Meh, I lived in the US for five years and now Europe for two.

At least in my experience there isn't any comparison. The European system and lifestyle is far superior.

The many American friends I left behind will work their entire lives to be able to live like I do now working a pretty bum job in Europe.

But thats just my life, for some others it may be far different.

I don't know why there has to be such ridiculous arguments about it.

[Lightbringer]

& same for you? Seems to me I am reading propaganda when reading you, you know..... I don't say your system is bad, I just say it's not the only one.

That is me...one man propaganda machine! I don't mind if you take what I say with a grain of salt, but really, what sort of agenda could I have for saying that my country is not as bad as the media portrays it? What do I get out of it? My conscience urges me to refute what I see as gross exaggerations and outright lies. My only point to you was that 20% sales tax seems very high. If I had to pay that, I could not afford health insurance either. (well I did mention income tax... ) My main point of contention was Miecznik's comment about slaves, and Klaus' beliefs that America is one giant police state/slum. The only negative comments made about Euro-socialism were to remind them that social ills are common in both our societies. I do not feel like I was ranting and railing against Euro Socialism so much as against Anti American misconceptions.

I don't think lowly (admittedly, I don't think all that highly either) of European Socialism. It seems to work alright for y'all. I respect your rights to govern as you see fit. I I also reserve the right to oppose it for America. When it is imposed on me, it becomes my business. When people make insulting comments about my country that are not based on reality, I reserve the right to refute those misstatements. Simple as that.

-Light

[tkobo]

@light - AND just think how high their taxes WOULD be,if they had to maintain a real military to defend themselves instead of relying on the U.S. military (thru nato and more).

I mean heck, most of them arent even willing to support monetarily what tiny militaries they do keep around for parades and such

[high empty]

Bah they are a bunch of wimps living on the american dole. Cause it's cheaper for the americans if they don't have to go and save them from themselves again



Now onto the only issue that matters!

"wherever people are skilled & motivated"


Some people are motivated to work for the betterment of man. Some are motivated to work for the betterment of themselves. Those people that are motivated that like thier job, enjoy their life, be it just making money, or helping and taking care of all those less motivated then them. THEY are what make, or break any company, orginization, or country!

[rebelito]

Dear Lightbringer,

even if your nick says it, there are some dark holes where even you cannot bring light. I quote Voltaire for the third time:

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they cherish."

Now, to the important point:

I AM NOT AN EURO!!!

I had the choice to go there, or to come to Northamerica, when I decided to leave my pathetic southamerican country. And I decided to leave, because as usual, Southamerica is embracing communism now when it has clearly failed everywhere. No, thank you, I refuse to be a slave. And eurofriends, no matter what you say, any form of collectivism is the true definition of slavery.

When I looked into Europe as a potential target for my migration, I did not like what I saw. And believe me, I did my homework; I researched the crap out of the world, because I knew this was a once-in-a-life move, for me and for my family. So forget about weak arguments like "propaganda swallower".

In the end, I chose Canada. Yes, Lightbringer, I know; it is not USA. But it is not Europe either. Thankfully, it has a lot from you "yankees", and from my point fo view, it is that "Billie Yank" part of Canada that keeps things going for the better here. As one friend told me once: "Canada is the best because it has the best from the USA mixed with the best from Europe". Maybe he was right.

But let me tell you something: USA is a country to admire, in every sense. You have your problems, yes, of course you have, and especially now that a bigger part of the country is swallowing the socialist lie. You are fighting the battle between the ideas of your Founding Fathers and the ideas of loosers like Karl Marx and his copycats. The world will be a better place depending on who wins that battle of ideas.

To make things short, let me tell you something: if anything, I am the most radical form of Randian individual. Ayn Rand is my prophet, and she knew what she was talking about. You can see it everywhere happening now, and especially, in Europe and Southamerica.

So, never insult me again: I am not an Euro!

My ancestors were, yes, but that kind does not seem to exist anymore. The kind that made Prussia, France and England the best countries in the globe.

See you around, Texas Ranger!

[tkobo]

Billie Yank

Now theres a term i havent heard in a LONG time ...

[rebelito]

Billie Yank

Now theres a term i havent heard in a LONG time ...

with all the love, believe me...

You should revisit the epic movie (or the book) Gettysburg (The Killer Angels). There you'll hear it...

[Snk]

Some people here appear to have problems distinguishing between comunism and what is called here "euro socialism".
The communism theory is that everyone works to their best and everyone uses only what they need. This is obviously very utopian idea and simply cannot exist in any size comunity (be it 2 people or 2 bilion people) where there are two different opinions on single matter. It never existed and whatever country claims or claimed to be comunistic simply use it as a nice cover for nothing more than dictatorship.
Socialism on the other hand is inbetween pure capitalism and comunism, in it that in general people gat paid proportionaly to their works market value (as in capitalism) but contribute to national pool for social spendings. And pretty much almost every country throught the world uses a form of it. The matter is only what is considered essential and what not for natioanal policy. Most would put on the list free clinics, public shools, army, police force and roads system. Some countries add to it mass transport, supporting bussinesses, public legal advice and so on.
Putting it all together USA is as socialist as European countries are. Difference is only in what level taxes are set and what services you get for them, and it changes every year with each new conception by same or fairly often new governing cabinet.
As for what's more efficient depends highly on the current officials and it changes as often as those people.
On the final note, considering that social spendings are "chains cherished by fools" is pretty shalow. I'd rather be "chained" by paying a tax and seeing bright but poor pupils having an education than beeing free to do whatever i want with all of my money but having those kids working their asses off instead of beeing in schools. If you call me a fool because of that then i dare say you're more of a one.

[rebelito]

it was Voltaire who called you that. He knew.

[high empty]

and which part of canada did you choose to move into?

[rebelito]

and which part of canada did you choose to move into?

BC