Euro socialists etc. (Split from Strange pricing)

[Lightbringer]

Rebelito-

My deepest apologies for the mistaken thought that you were European. I misread your post. In any case no insult was intended.

I'll repeat myself for all the actual Europeans, I meant no insult to you either.

Snk-

You are, of course, correct. America, just like most existing countries is partially Socialist. This is the very root of my unease. While a large portion of the European countries are taking economic steps back from the quicksand of "too much Socialism", the Left wing of my homeland seem bound and determined to forge ahead along the same path. The front tires are already stuck up to the axle, the back tires are beginning to spin ruts, and they can think of nothing but stomping on the gas.

I am not an idiot. I am not a heartless bastard. I realize that some degree of Socialism is necessary and even desirable. Just not the degree the Democrats want to impose. In fact, I think we are about ten degrees over the line as it is. I too want each child to be free to learn their own fill, to achieve their potential. By stuffing them into government run schools that are dominated by a monolithic Union, and have degraded to crap because no one dares to oppose it, you are sentencing them to inferior education and less opportunity. In a less Socialist system, they would receive a voucher to spend on private education, or to allow one parent to home school them. Poorly performing schools would be forced to improve to compete for students and their voucher money. This is only one area where less Socialism and more choice would prove beneficial.

Paper money does not represent anything solid. It represents units of time and labor. The percentage of earnings absorbed into taxes represents time stolen from each individual by the government. I say stolen because the citizen has no real say in how their time is spent.

The time has come to move away from monolithic, heavy handed, "pure" government entitlement programs. The government bureaucracy has shown time and time and time again that it does not know how to handle money without wasting half of it and frittering away the other half on uses it was not intended for. Social security is a prime example. While this boondoggle is about to go belly up fiscally, the same amounts of money as a person paid in throughout their working life would have earned them millions if invested in exactly the same time frame. That is not based on investing in the hottest stocks and investment funds, that is based on investing in safe and conservative funds. The Government did not invest all the billions it was handed, it frittered all that money away.

Someone gave the example that they would have to slave away in America to have the lifestyle they live while working an easy job in Europe. What they do not seem aware of, is that someone had to work harder, and live below their efforts to pay for that life of lazy luxury. Government should handle only those things that it's citizens can not handle for themselves. It has no business redistributing wealth simply to buy votes from those too lazy or incompetent to accumulate it themselves. Protecting common workers from unscrupulous employers is one thing, punishing companies for being profitable is quite another. Punishing success and rewarding mediocrity only reduces success and increases mediocrity.

You said it yourself. Communism is an unrealistic, Utopian pipe dream. I want my country to move away from the pipe dream and back towards freedom and success. The more Socialistic we become, the closer to dictatorship we slip. (...fade to a wide shot of a massive arena chanting in unison, "Yes We Can! Yes We Can! Yes We Can!"... fade to black.

clear male tenor:
"The Sun on the meadow is summery warm.
The stag in the forest runs free..." )

-Light

[Feltan]

Wow Light -- that was wonderful.

I nominate you for Supreme Ruler!

Oh, wait....can't do it...a Supreme Ruler simply can't be a long haired hippy!

Regards,
Feltan

[Lightbringer]

Thanks Feltan... and I can cut my hair anytime.

How refreshing would it be to hear someone say this stuff from the stump...and mean it? There are an awful lot of people who feel this way, and they have no representative.

...and just think... I could use the porta-potty/rainbow stew line in a televised debate! LOL

-Light

[tkobo]

Id vote for you over the present selection of loonies

[Feltan]

Id vote for you over the present selection of loonies

Indeed! But that is hardly a compliment. The choices are a secretive socialist with almost no experience on the international stage, or a geriatric unstable populist with a failing memory. We are so screwed.

Regards,
Feltan

[tkobo]

Im not overly worried.
The nation has survived Nixon,Ford,Carter and Clinton.We continue to survive Carter AND Clinton

Heck, we survived a Kennedy in the office

We'll be fine.
Sure, we may get roughed up a little,but we'll manage.

Heck, i believe we'd even survive an engineer in office.THOUGH that would be a close one

[Lightbringer]

From a report by the Wall Street Journal's Bob Davis and Amy Chozick, quoting Barack Obama: (thanks to Don Boudreaux)

"Globalization and technology and automation all weaken the position of workers," [Obama] said, and a strong government hand is needed to assure that wealth is distributed more equitably.

All that is missing is the Soviet national anthem.

-Light

[rebelito]

Man, you have the Founding Fathers as clear as your hand... good for you!

You may be asking yourself "how does this southamerican renegade know so much about our Founding Fathers?".

Well, admiration is a huge booster to learning. I have always admired the "legendary" USA, the country that became the unarguable leader of the world, starting from nothing, from scratch, from the european renegades that left the crumbling old continent with nothing more than their will to have a better life... they only needed the right legal frame, and the Founding Fathers gave them that.

How did you forget all that so quickly? I don't mean you, but your fellow countrymen who dream of becoming the new Europe (better called Eurabia, as the bright Orianna Fallacci used to call it...). What happened to the true American Dream, where nothing is guaranteed but your freedom to pursue your own destiny?

Now everyone seems to dream of getting some wastepart of the government's handovers... and nothing more. Indeed, the only thing any society can achieve in that scenario is the redistribution of MEDIOCRITY, better known as poverty.

Well, my dream is that of a Galt's Valley, the valley developed by Ayn Rand's hero, John Galt, where every competent individual fled to start their own society based only on what each one can do, and is willing to do.

Of course, in that Valley, there is no place for the lazy who's only goal in life is to live from the efforts of others.

I did not came this far to see it happening all over again. Do you want to see the end result of collectivism and populism? Good, I will guide your tour through the Third World...

Best regards,

[red]

"Globalization and technology and automation all weaken the position of workers," [Obama] said, and a strong government hand is needed to assure that wealth is distributed more equitably.

All that is missing is the Soviet national anthem.

I don't suppose it helps that some of the nations everyone agrees are really, really super places to live in have strong governments to redistribute wealth? No one's going to take your house, comrade.

It's such a complex subject, I don't know where to start, but the economic system that we have here with its particular levels of pay, types of contracts, etc. is not God-given and there is no reason before looking at data to think that people are any happier or our economic system any more productive in our country than others. In truth, it's agreed that the Scandinavian states which are strong on redistribution have some very well performing economies and happy societies that provide among the best education in the world and very good healthcare and have high ratings of life satisfaction.

[Lightbringer]

Red-

Yes, Scandinavia is a good example of functioning socialism. They are also good examples of countries that do not have 300+ million people. They are also good examples of countries where the Socialist party has not spent half a century indoctrinating minorities with victim-hood and the concept of a "free ride" as birth right. Socialism works best when people freely bust their butts for the common good. The United States has large segments of population that have been trained since birth that they deserve what others have because, "Like, it's not fair!".

I dare say that the population in the United States that thinks they are going to get something for nothing just by "taxing the rich", is larger than the entire population of Scandinavia (yes, I know it is not a single country). If we were talking about Socialism exclusively by and for those with a good work ethic in the U.S., then it might work. Unfortunately, we also have 150 million slackers who have been trained to be that way by liberals building a voting base.

Nice example of functional socialism, but apples and oranges.

-Light

[sirveri]

I dare say that the population in the United States that thinks they are going to get something for nothing just by "taxing the rich", is larger than the entire population of Scandinavia (yes, I know it is not a single country). If we were talking about Socialism exclusively by and for those with a good work ethic in the U.S., then it might work. Unfortunately, we also have 150 million slackers who have been trained to be that way by liberals building a voting base.

I think it might be a bit more complicated than that. I'm willing to bust my ass, but I'm not willing to bust my ass 85 hours a week with no vacation in sight to just barely get by. Which is what I had to do while in the Navy and NOT on deployment. But it seems like the only way to really get ahead in America anymore is to work a lot more than 40 hours a week. And I think as a society we should explore why our working conditions are like that before we begin complaining about lazy people. Sure lazy people are a part of the problem, but that's an education/parenting issue. And who has time to parent when they're working all the time? Also the product loading I've been seeing advertised lately seems to be for useless garbage that people don't need. It's all cell phone ring tones and earn 20k a week by going to this website. There are also the dubious and strange commercials that don't appear to advertise ANYTHING. Like Boeing and its commercials or Lockhead Martin. Then again that could be a product of living in Virginia.

[Feltan]

It's such a complex subject, I don't know where to start, but the economic system that we have here with its particular levels of pay, types of contracts, etc. is not God-given...

Well, it kind of is. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are, according to our founding documents, given to us by God, not congress. I really object to congress trying to re-order society according to the latest fad.

...and there is no reason before looking at data to think that people are any happier or our economic system any more productive in our country than others...

I can't speak to hapiness, but productivity is another matter. Currently, U.S. workers are the most productive in the world. Additionally, until the start of the Great Society programs, the U.S. GDP was about 45% of that of the entire world.

Light is really on a roll! This page should be cut & pasted and sent to McCain to remind him that being a limp wristed compromiser on every issue is no way to run a campaign or a government.

Regards,
Feltan

[red]

There is no god. Productivity is fine. But the Great Society programs had nothing to do with the share of world GDP the US had.

Light, I'm don't know about freeloaders. There are freeloaders everywhere, and I don't know that everyone else suffer from it. I think it's better to err on the side of caution and be too generous towards people who don't truly need it than too stingy to people who do. It would probably be beneficial overall, since we're wasting a lot of lives with kids growing up in the ghetto and not doing a thing with their lives.

[tkobo]

Ahhh, but what happens in such a system when there is no one with extra to give ?
What happens in that system AFTER wealth has been "redistributed" so everyones just squeaking by .
What happens when everybody is living in those ghettos.

What happens when food becomes more scarce than money.

What happens when the majority of the population no longers feels a reason to work where needed.

When progress fades,than stops. And regression starts due to lack of any reason to strive for better ?

Whats happens ?

They start to fight among themselves.They start to lose vital government organizations (police, army,etc...).
Til a socialist dictator comes lone and the people are too "dead" inside and busy outside trying to keep what little of them is still alive so, to
weak to stand up to him.

Sounds alot like all the third world disasters masquerading as countries doesnt it.
Theres probably a reason for that

Now i know there is no god.I know that any government WILL serve itself over the people.
AND i know that in such a world, i like to refer to as reality, my best chance (like most others) is to have as much freedom to control my finances as possible within limits.

When you start breaking laws to make your finances work, youve gone past those limits.
Gates,Lay,Skilling,Rockefellers,Numerous other robber barrons,numerous ogliarchs,Numerous tabacco executives,numerous stock fraudsters, etc....
have done so and get away with it.
There lays the true problem facing american society today.

The biggest threat ,sorry to tell some of you is not the governments, but people who takes things to far in pursuit of their owns goals.

Just look at the recent morgage screwup.

Governments dont need to forcibly redistribute wealth,they need to better enforce the system.
So that we ourselves can redistribute it thru our own actions without having to compete with the out and out criminals to do so.

So be a good boy while mommy shops, and she'll buy you a new toy.
Eat all your veggies, or you wont get dessert.
Do your work or you wont get paid.

Even people silly enough to have children ,understand a reward system gives people that exrta needed reason to do what they should.

How many parents are stupid enough to tell their children "Dont worry about your dinner, eat as much or little as you want, your entitled to your share of dessert regardless "?

[Lightbringer]

@Sirveri-

First off, thank you for your service. Those who give of their time to protect this country deserve better than not being able make ends meet. You are correct, the situation is more complex than my "150 million slackers" comment. My oversimplification was made to point out the fundamental differences between our population and that of Sweden or wherever. You are also correct that the culture of immediate gratification has warped values, both of goods and services, of society as a whole, and inside many people's hearts. Dave Ramsey makes the observation that too many of us do not "act our wage". I personally work 40-45 hours a week. My wife does not work, and yet we own a modest house and are very happy. I do not have one hour of college. Perhaps we each need to re-evaluate what we define as "getting ahead", and whether the cost is worth it to each of us. Things are too expensive, but I do not think that Socialism is going to make them more affordable. The Senate Cafeteria lost 18 million dollars in 15 years and had an atrocious reputation for crappy food. Senate employees ate habitually at the privatized facility of the House. Does that sound like the sort of business management to fix anything?

kids growing up in the ghetto and not doing a thing with their lives.

I have several things to say about this simple and true statement.

What fantastically egotistical hubris. This boils socialism down quite nicely. You believe you have the right, even the duty, to f**k around with other people's lives. To tell them what to do and how to do it. Do you realize how degrading it is to tell poor people, "It is not your fault you are poor. You are not capable of making your life better, we will fix it for you." It is all part and parcel of the culture of victim-hood. Liberals have been pouring money on "poverty" with a fire hose since the '60s, and still there are poor. Only now, they are convinced that someone else made them that way, not their own behavior, choices, lifestyle, and lack of ambition. What y'all always overlook is how many people make it out of poverty. No one is holding these people down except those who brainwash them into thinking there is nothing they can do because they are victims. I have told you before, and I shall repeat it. I lived on the street. I ate out of dumpsters and at soup kitchens. I got off my ass, got a job, and pulled myself up by my boot straps. Quit telling poor people that they are incapable of doing the same thing. You can't teach a baby to walk by constantly carrying them, and you won't lift people out of poverty unless they learn to pick themselves up out of it.

Personally, I do not like the look of our society as it becomes filled with more and more people who think...no, who believe in their heart and soul that they are entitled to have everything handed to them for free. I would rather live amongst a people who stand up on their own two feet and strive, sweat, toil, and grab what they want with both hands. People who, if they can't reach their goal at first, will work until they drop to find a way to stretch that extra inch or mile until they can grab the brass ring. People who smile and decline when someone offers them a free hamburger if they will only sit down and rest. "No thank you, I'd rather earn that nice juicy steak I want!"

By tricking poor people into feeling hopeless and helpless to change their own lives for the better without big brother to give them a hand out, the Democrats are keeping slaves, just like they did more blatantly before the Civil War. You propose giving them a fish, and demanding their vote if they want another fish tomorrow. I believe we ought to teach them to fish, or teach them to make and sell fishing poles, or to sit on their ass and go hungry if that is what they wish to do.

Children do not learn very much if you do their homework for them. They neither learn nor earn any self esteem from trying and winning, if you do not also give them the freedom to lose. By trying to ensure that there are no losers in life... you are ensuring that there are no winners either. Life becomes rather pointless and boring when the best you can hope for is the crappy consolation prize given to every single contestant.

I'll tell you how to solve poverty inequality. Education vouchers. Give poor people better opportunity to be educated in quality schools of their own choice. Make sure parents are informed about what schools are good or crappy, and let them choose. Poor performing schools will improve or become empty. Give them the choice, then stand back and let them decide their own fate like human beings. You can't force people to succeed, but we can remove the Socialist imposed chains that make it harder to escape the Ghetto.

-Light