Mig 21 Mesh/Texture, X region code (split from Changelog 9.1.303)

[Nerei]

Thought I would elaborate a bit about Article 9 of the Japanese constitution and why the JSDF exist despite apparently not being allowed under that article.


TL;DR The ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) is saddled with a part of the constitution it does not like but cannot change so it is working around it by making interpretations of it. Their interpretation however have the full backing of the Supreme court of Japan so the LDP interpretation is the only one that matters.


A law is what you make of it. It is no different for article 9 of the Japanese constitution.

Yes it is easy to find people that regard the JSDF as an abomination against the constitution that should be purged with fire. Those opinions however means little if the voters do not elect someone that agree with them on that point.
For the most part they do not.

For most of the post war period the LDP have been in power either alone or together with other national conservative parties in a coalition.

As the LDP have been in power for most of the post war period so their interpretation is pretty much what matters.
The other relevant authority would be the Supreme court of Japan as it can and will rule in matters of the constitution but so far it has not ruled against the LDP interpretation. On the contrary it has ruled armed self defence constitutional so the LDP interpretation is backed by the supreme court.

Thus all relevant parties have given their interpretations of Article 9 and these parties have supported the existence of armed forces for self defence.


While it is possible to argue if that interpretation is right or not the powers that be have made theirs and until they change it either by power changing hands or the LDP changes its opinion (not happening in a million years) the relevant interpretation of article 9 is that armed self defence is okay.


Article 9 exist in its current form is not something cherished by the LDP. It has since its founding in the early post war period fought to either change or completely abolish article 9.
PM Shinzo Abe (LDP leader) has basically made a full on assault on it and is very much hoping to either rewrite it into obscurity if not completely removing it. If he succeeds is another matter entirely.

This dislike for article 9 has resulted in increasingly liberal interpretations of it since it was written in 47. Under Shinzo Abe this has reached a new level of nationalistic interpretations.


The reason wording of article 9 has not been changed or it has outright been removed is due to article 96 of the Japanese constitution that deals with constitutional amendments.
Simply put changing the Japanese constitution is hard. In fact it is so hard that it has never been successfully done.

It requires a 2/3 majority of both chambers of the Diet to vote for it followed by a confirmatory vote among the populace to ratify it.

For those of you curious yes the LDP wants to amend article 96 also.


That said article 9 does still have a significant influence on the JSDF.
A noteworthy one is the JMSDF lacks land attack capabilities as land attack cruise missiles are deemed offensive weapons.
Likewise the reason vessels like the Hyuga class is deemed a helicopter destroyer (other than being a poor design to operate fixed wing aircraft) is that it is considered a defensive vessel as those mainly serve in an ASW role and protecting merchant shipping is deemed vital for the safety of the nation (e.g. defensive).
Likewise JASDF aircraft are generally not configured for ground attack as that is considered offensive. Even attack aircraft like the retired F-1 mainly served in an anti-ship role as that was deemed defensive. The only other combat role the JASDF has is superiority as that is again deemed defensive.

[Zuikaku]

The money comes from the customers. If devolopers wants the money from the consumers then it has to adapt to the needs of consumers. Which means that if you want to play with country form R,T,X,U,Z it should be interesting. With separating the x group from t group turned out to be a very bad experiment. For example, the insertion of equipment by state producers and the production capacity of the country(lazar 2.nora b 52. M 84 ab1 to serbia production capasity) is being ignored despite the fact that, unlike your requirements, I added a link with the manufacturer of that equipment. so it is best for everyone to abolish the x gurp and assign it to someone else. maybe mexico .... And small countries from the balkans to return to the t group.

Yes, the money comes from the customer and there are many fantasy games on the market. As far as I can remember, BGs were more about reality and less about fantasy.

You started talking about reality. If the constitution says that it should not have an army why it has it? And so much about reality and your unit comments.

So much about your "you are reading poorly" statement.

I, as a consumer, can state that I do not like groups to have few units. AI develops units from his group only,so the more units available to develop, the more interesting it is,and AI is harder to beat.
I have to disappoint you about building tanks. Serbia has in this introduced new 20 m 84 AB1 tanks. you like to comment a lot and you read poorly. if you read the information then go to the manufacturer's website. I have to admit that I am very little interested in J. All i know is that they bought a design f 16 c from USA and with Locheed Martin achieved production capacity and renamed it in F2.
And that they had purchased a main gun firing system for their tank from Germany. I don't like to express myself in a negative way. I respect all nations, because most people are good everywhere, though others are louder.
According to. read the manufacturer's website and only then declare something for some production capacity.

As a customer you are interested only in boosting one particular region group. And that is your right as a customer but this make you not too much objective disputant.

And lets talk a little bit about famous tank building capacity of X-region. Slovenian top achievement was modernizing T-55 and M-84s. All of them already existing, none produced. Croatia built some 50-80 "new" Snipers during the '90s from the parts that were already in the factory (which was used for assembly only anyway. It has also "produced" 2 Degman prototypes from the parts they found all over the world and their modernization efforts have devolved into servicing existing tanks.
Serbia was also successfull in building new tanks and serviceing existing ones. In fact it was so successfull that the Russian emergency donation of some 40 T-72s was required to preserve basic functionality of Serbian tank forces.
And you are talking here about great tankbuilding capacity of X region which spawns new models and prototypes on yearly basis. Only on paper I afraid. See, I'm not very interested in what (bankrupted) producers claim on their leaflets. Because these are all their wishfull thinking required to interest investors. They say they woul'd like to build these tanks, but that does not mean they are capable to do so. You see, I talk to my buddies I woul'd wish to date Shakira, Lana del Rey and Emma Bunton at the same time. But that does not mean this is the reality.
Saying all these, I do not have anything against X region, on contrary. But I just disagree they are very capable tank builders at the moment. I base this on the following:
Who in the X region is capable of producing tank engine? Tank transmission? Cast turret (or produce it in any other way)? Roadwheels and drive? Who can produce modern tank gun? Who is capable producing modern fire control systems and sensors (except from slovenian Fotona but that is also BIG maybe). Modern armor for the tank? Who and where in the region X?

Don't get me wrong, I'm really not about X-region having some of these prototypes to be able to be competitive (but not superior). But let's be honest ,don't say that X-region is neglected. It even can build hardware that never got past the drawing boards (Novi Avion, Vulkan...).

[milivoje02]

The money comes from the customers. If devolopers wants the money from the consumers then it has to adapt to the needs of consumers. Which means that if you want to play with country form R,T,X,U,Z it should be interesting. With separating the x group from t group turned out to be a very bad experiment. For example, the insertion of equipment by state producers and the production capacity of the country(lazar 2.nora b 52. M 84 ab1 to serbia production capasity) is being ignored despite the fact that, unlike your requirements, I added a link with the manufacturer of that equipment. so it is best for everyone to abolish the x gurp and assign it to someone else. maybe mexico .... And small countries from the balkans to return to the t group.

Yes, the money comes from the customer and there are many fantasy games on the market. As far as I can remember, BGs were more about reality and less about fantasy.

You started talking about reality. If the constitution says that it should not have an army why it has it? And so much about reality and your unit comments.

So much about your "you are reading poorly" statement.

I, as a consumer, can state that I do not like groups to have few units. AI develops units from his group only,so the more units available to develop, the more interesting it is,and AI is harder to beat.
I have to disappoint you about building tanks. Serbia has in this introduced new 20 m 84 AB1 tanks. you like to comment a lot and you read poorly. if you read the information then go to the manufacturer's website. I have to admit that I am very little interested in J. All i know is that they bought a design f 16 c from USA and with Locheed Martin achieved production capacity and renamed it in F2.
And that they had purchased a main gun firing system for their tank from Germany. I don't like to express myself in a negative way. I respect all nations, because most people are good everywhere, though others are louder.
According to. read the manufacturer's website and only then declare something for some production capacity.

As a customer you are interested only in boosting one particular region group. And that is your right as a customer but this make you not too much objective disputant.

And lets talk a little bit about famous tank building capacity of X-region. Slovenian top achievement was modernizing T-55 and M-84s. All of them already existing, none produced. Croatia built some 50-80 "new" Snipers during the '90s from the parts that were already in the factory (which was used for assembly only anyway. It has also "produced" 2 Degman prototypes from the parts they found all over the world and their modernization efforts have devolved into servicing existing tanks.
Serbia was also successfull in building new tanks and serviceing existing ones. In fact it was so successfull that the Russian emergency donation of some 40 T-72s was required to preserve basic functionality of Serbian tank forces.
And you are talking here about great tankbuilding capacity of X region which spawns new models and prototypes on yearly basis. Only on paper I afraid. See, I'm not very interested in what (bankrupted) producers claim on their leaflets. Because these are all their wishfull thinking required to interest investors. They say they woul'd like to build these tanks, but that does not mean they are capable to do so. You see, I talk to my buddies I woul'd wish to date Shakira, Lana del Rey and Emma Bunton at the same time. But that does not mean this is the reality.
Saying all these, I do not have anything against X region, on contrary. But I just disagree they are very capable tank builders at the moment. I base this on the following:
Who in the X region is capable of producing tank engine? Tank transmission? Cast turret (or produce it in any other way)? Roadwheels and drive? Who can produce modern tank gun? Who is capable producing modern fire control systems and sensors (except from slovenian Fotona but that is also BIG maybe). Modern armor for the tank? Who and where in the region X?

Don't get me wrong, I'm really not about X-region having some of these prototypes to be able to be competitive (but not superior). But let's be honest ,don't say that X-region is neglected. It even can build hardware that never got past the drawing boards (Novi Avion, Vulkan...).

First of all x group countries have a technique from the past that they are modernizing. Croatia and Slovenia have almost given up on domestic weapons, as they are a major contributor to the import of equipment. Bought the production line 5 years ago for Finnish patria. Serbina has a lot of projects in the last 10 years. Especially in the field of rocket artillery and ballistic rocket artillery. Nora b 52 self-propelled howitzer is a peo product exported to 4 countries from serbia so far. lazar 3 is for Zandarmerija( special police unit wich secure internal line with south province of Kosovo and Metohija). Serbia assembled new tanks last year and showed them in a parade marking the anniversary of the victory over fascism. M 84 ab1(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank) a new armor, a stronger engine, was also inserted. the main cannon system. new ammunition was introduced with increased penenetratoe at 570-600. observation system. deadly cannon range at 5 km. 20 of them were submitted new. Modernization is being done for all t 55. even the number of 282 Pakistani t 55s has been obtained, of which the first 100 have been completed.
for example, the Croatian degman was inserted into the capacity of the Croatian and why not the m 84 ab1 into the Serbian capacity? also for nora b 52?
As regards Nov Avion technology has been finalized for him, a cockpit has been made and production line i Utva Pancevo in coopwration with French Dassualt. Sanctions and NATO aggression then stopped the program.It was offered to Saudi Arabia to work together who know what would be there.
R 25 waa devolope in 1950,but it vas infiriore to USSSR rokets and they were a better investment.
Sonation of 30 t 72 form Rusia to Serbian army amazed us all,because it keeps its t 72 in reserve conserved because they are inferior to m 84.
Croatia has not made new m 84 A4,it has upgrade the old. it is just an advanced fire control and observation system. M 90 degman are new(2).
Again in all groups have units from the US and the Russian military in they tex region group. again all this is just a game.
And here is the theme that they put the markings of a country that does not exist on units of countries that exists.

[milivoje02]

Thought I would elaborate a bit about Article 9 of the Japanese constitution and why the JSDF exist despite apparently not being allowed under that article.


TL;DR The ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) is saddled with a part of the constitution it does not like but cannot change so it is working around it by making interpretations of it. Their interpretation however have the full backing of the Supreme court of Japan so the LDP interpretation is the only one that matters.


A law is what you make of it. It is no different for article 9 of the Japanese constitution.

Yes it is easy to find people that regard the JSDF as an abomination against the constitution that should be purged with fire. Those opinions however means little if the voters do not elect someone that agree with them on that point.
For the most part they do not.

For most of the post war period the LDP have been in power either alone or together with other national conservative parties in a coalition.

As the LDP have been in power for most of the post war period so their interpretation is pretty much what matters.
The other relevant authority would be the Supreme court of Japan as it can and will rule in matters of the constitution but so far it has not ruled against the LDP interpretation. On the contrary it has ruled armed self defence constitutional so the LDP interpretation is backed by the supreme court.

Thus all relevant parties have given their interpretations of Article 9 and these parties have supported the existence of armed forces for self defence.


While it is possible to argue if that interpretation is right or not the powers that be have made theirs and until they change it either by power changing hands or the LDP changes its opinion (not happening in a million years) the relevant interpretation of article 9 is that armed self defence is okay.


Article 9 exist in its current form is not something cherished by the LDP. It has since its founding in the early post war period fought to either change or completely abolish article 9.
PM Shinzo Abe (LDP leader) has basically made a full on assault on it and is very much hoping to either rewrite it into obscurity if not completely removing it. If he succeeds is another matter entirely.

This dislike for article 9 has resulted in increasingly liberal interpretations of it since it was written in 47. Under Shinzo Abe this has reached a new level of nationalistic interpretations.


The reason wording of article 9 has not been changed or it has outright been removed is due to article 96 of the Japanese constitution that deals with constitutional amendments.
Simply put changing the Japanese constitution is hard. In fact it is so hard that it has never been successfully done.

It requires a 2/3 majority of both chambers of the Diet to vote for it followed by a confirmatory vote among the populace to ratify it.

For those of you curious yes the LDP wants to amend article 96 also.


That said article 9 does still have a significant influence on the JSDF.
A noteworthy one is the JMSDF lacks land attack capabilities as land attack cruise missiles are deemed offensive weapons.
Likewise the reason vessels like the Hyuga class is deemed a helicopter destroyer (other than being a poor design to operate fixed wing aircraft) is that it is considered a defensive vessel as those mainly serve in an ASW role and protecting merchant shipping is deemed vital for the safety of the nation (e.g. defensive).
Likewise JASDF aircraft are generally not configured for ground attack as that is considered offensive. Even attack aircraft like the retired F-1 mainly served in an anti-ship role as that was deemed defensive. The only other combat role the JASDF has is superiority as that is again deemed defensive.

Very little followed up on this. remember that some 7 years ago it was a peoblem with the deployment of some medice army units in the US military structures in the Middle East ...
And I know that was the pacifist approach of the government of Japan after World War 2. except that the constitution prohibits the army and allows the formation of only a defense group. I haven't read much about it.
But I like the cooperative system on developing armaments with japan working with other countries.

[Zuikaku]

First of all x group countries have a technique from the past that they are modernizing. Croatia and Slovenia have almost given up on domestic weapons, as they are a major contributor to the import of equipment. Bought the production line 5 years ago for Finnish patria. Serbina has a lot of projects in the last 10 years. Especially in the field of rocket artillery and ballistic rocket artillery. Nora b 52 self-propelled howitzer is a peo product exported to 4 countries from serbia so far. lazar 3 is for Zandarmerija( special police unit wich secure internal line with south province of Kosovo and Metohija). Serbia assembled new tanks last year and showed them in a parade marking the anniversary of the victory over fascism. M 84 ab1(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank) a new armor, a stronger engine, was also inserted. the main cannon system. new ammunition was introduced with increased penenetratoe at 570-600. observation system. deadly cannon range at 5 km. 20 of them were submitted new. Modernization is being done for all t 55. even the number of 282 Pakistani t 55s has been obtained, of which the first 100 have been completed.
for example, the Croatian degman was inserted into the capacity of the Croatian and why not the m 84 ab1 into the Serbian capacity? also for nora b 52?
As regards Nov Avion technology has been finalized for him, a cockpit has been made and production line i Utva Pancevo in coopwration with French Dassualt. Sanctions and NATO aggression then stopped the program.It was offered to Saudi Arabia to work together who know what would be there.
R 25 waa devolope in 1950,but it vas infiriore to USSSR rokets and they were a better investment.
Sonation of 30 t 72 form Rusia to Serbian army amazed us all,because it keeps its t 72 in reserve conserved because they are inferior to m 84.
Croatia has not made new m 84 A4,it has upgrade the old. it is just an advanced fire control and observation system. M 90 degman are new(2).
Again in all groups have units from the US and the Russian military in they tex region group. again all this is just a game.
And here is the theme that they put the markings of a country that does not exist on units of countries that exists.

So, donated russian T-72B3s are inferior to M-84s (although they got ERA, better gun and ammo, better armour, sensors and fire control and are less worn out) and completely unneeded by Serbia, but yet they accepted them gladly? nevertheless they even insisted in getting them together with BRDM-2s. OK!

I'm really not interested in propaganda stuff you keep repeating (but you don't even bother to read the links you provide). You did not answer to any single question of mine. I have asked you very clearly: which new tanks were produced? Where? Who produced parts? Engine? New gun? Turret?

M-84 AB1 is just a modernization package. That means upgrading of existing tanks. With components bought from all over the world (who produces new sensors, fire control system, engine, remotely operated MG, ERA). Not really a big thing. My point is that this is not a tank production but upgrade of existing tanks. and that is not strange. Less and less coutries are capable of developing and building weapon systems as complex and demanding as tanks. Even major coutries have serious problems in tank development.

[milivoje02]

First of all x group countries have a technique from the past that they are modernizing. Croatia and Slovenia have almost given up on domestic weapons, as they are a major contributor to the import of equipment. Bought the production line 5 years ago for Finnish patria. Serbina has a lot of projects in the last 10 years. Especially in the field of rocket artillery and ballistic rocket artillery. Nora b 52 self-propelled howitzer is a peo product exported to 4 countries from serbia so far. lazar 3 is for Zandarmerija( special police unit wich secure internal line with south province of Kosovo and Metohija). Serbia assembled new tanks last year and showed them in a parade marking the anniversary of the victory over fascism. M 84 ab1(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank) a new armor, a stronger engine, was also inserted. the main cannon system. new ammunition was introduced with increased penenetratoe at 570-600. observation system. deadly cannon range at 5 km. 20 of them were submitted new. Modernization is being done for all t 55. even the number of 282 Pakistani t 55s has been obtained, of which the first 100 have been completed.
for example, the Croatian degman was inserted into the capacity of the Croatian and why not the m 84 ab1 into the Serbian capacity? also for nora b 52?
As regards Nov Avion technology has been finalized for him, a cockpit has been made and production line i Utva Pancevo in coopwration with French Dassualt. Sanctions and NATO aggression then stopped the program.It was offered to Saudi Arabia to work together who know what would be there.
R 25 waa devolope in 1950,but it vas infiriore to USSSR rokets and they were a better investment.
Sonation of 30 t 72 form Rusia to Serbian army amazed us all,because it keeps its t 72 in reserve conserved because they are inferior to m 84.
Croatia has not made new m 84 A4,it has upgrade the old. it is just an advanced fire control and observation system. M 90 degman are new(2).
Again in all groups have units from the US and the Russian military in they tex region group. again all this is just a game.
And here is the theme that they put the markings of a country that does not exist on units of countries that exists.

So, donated russian T-72B3s are inferior to M-84s (although they got ERA, better gun and ammo, better armour, sensors and fire control and are less worn out) and completely unneeded by Serbia, but yet they accepted them gladly? nevertheless they even insisted in getting them together with BRDM-2s. OK!

I'm really not interested in propaganda stuff you keep repeating (but you don't even bother to read the links you provide). You did not answer to any single question of mine. I have asked you very clearly: which new tanks were produced? Where? Who produced parts? Engine? New gun? Turret?

M-84 AB1 is just a modernization package. That means upgrading of existing tanks. With components bought from all over the world (who produces new sensors, fire control system, engine, remotely operated MG, ERA). Not really a big thing. My point is that this is not a tank production but upgrade of existing tanks. and that is not strange. Less and less coutries are capable of developing and building weapon systems as complex and demanding as tanks. Even major coutries have serious problems in tank development.

No. you're wrong. I just read what the manufacturer say. I mean do you trust the cell phone maker for the features of his cell phone manufacturer?
Selling weapons is a very legally complex thing. That is, even for the conversion of the material of the bullet cache must go to the beginning, compel all the approval for export from the beginning. So the data of the producer must be accurate because of the permits of the United Nations.
Do countries in the world collaborate on technology exchange worldwide?
And why are tehnologies of F16 c buy form USA by Japan to make their F 2? Is that coperation same ass between Serbia and Russia, for example, this tank.
YUGOINPOR SDPR is a state ownership company for the production of weapons in Serbia. 20 factories that are engaged in military activity in Serbia are united in one company and go on the market under that name,by law they cannot do otherwise. Silly part of the conversation because you just go to the website of the army of Serbia and see what I say. m 85 ab1 the whole is assembled in Serbia. From the engine to the grenade penetrator, through a combat awareness commutator everything is being made for him in Serbia .
Technologies emerged from Russia 10 years ago,since the goal is to bring the tank to the level of t 90 tank. M 84 ab1 ia assamble in Velika Plana with engine 1200 Кs (В-46-ТК1).Again i tell you to read the information from the producer and then say something about the producer.
I generally don't understand why the requirement for this unit is so complicated?
And as for the donated t 72 they never even arrived. the rest are in the international waters of the Danube in Romania. they do not have a pass permit.
Generally this part is extremely funny to me. And as far as propaganda is concerned, I will always stand on the side of the earth people against anyone led by an alien.

Again here is the theme that flags and insignia of country that does not exist are on units of countries that exists.

[Zuikaku]

No. you're wrong. I just read what the manufacturer say. I mean do you trust the cell phone maker for the features of his cell phone manufacturer?

Yes, I'm wrong for not believing everything that manufacturer claims No, I generally do not believe cell phone manufacturers, especially the fruity one.

Selling weapons is a very legally complex thing. That is, even for the conversion of the material of the bullet cache must go to the beginning, compel all the approval for export from the beginning. So the data of the producer must be accurate because of the permits of the United Nations.

Are you familiar with the concept of marketing? And this about UN permits is a good joke. Do not even bother talking about "sophisticated" mechanism of international weapons trade or (highly molested and bended) international law.

Do countries in the world collaborate on technology exchange worldwide?

Sometimes.

And why are tehnologies of F16 c buy form USA by Japan to make their F 2? Is that coperation same ass between Serbia and Russia, for example, this tank.

No, this is not the same! While Japan is perfectly capable producing most (if not any) key components of the F2, X region IS NOT CAPABLE producing most key components (gun, engine, turrets, sights, sensors, armor). Beside producing licence version of this F-16 Japan is producing it's own designs. It is even planning to produce it's own 5th gen fighter. So, these two examples are not a good comparision at all.

YUGOINPOR SDPR is a state ownership company for the production of weapons in Serbia. 20 factories that are engaged in military activity in Serbia are united in one company and go on the market under that name,by law they cannot do otherwise. Silly part of the conversation because you just go to the website of the army of Serbia and see what I say. m 85 ab1 the whole is assembled in Serbia. From the engine to the grenade penetrator, through a combat awareness commutator everything is being made for him in Serbia .
Technologies emerged from Russia 10 years ago,since the goal is to bring the tank to the level of t 90 tank. M 84 ab1 ia assamble in Velika Plana with engine 1200 Кs (В-46-ТК1).Again i tell you to read the information from the producer and then say something about the producer.

Assembling is not the same as producing. same with the cell phones you have mentioned earlier. Chinese can make you any phone you want (you just send them the specs) and put your logo on it. Think they offer you this for 200 or more ordered. So is this your phone? Did you produced it? Are you capable producing it?

And again you are avoiding clearly answering the questions. Who produces the engine? and the rest?

"This MBT uses Russian-supplied Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armor, Shtora countermeasuressystem, fire control system, Agava-2 thermal imaging system and manyother components."
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m84ab1.htm

As we can see, all domestic components.

"The M-84AB1uses composite armor over the front arc, which consists of steel, titanium, tungsten, aluminum." - I'd like to know which region X domestic company is capable of producing such a complex armour? and what about turret?

Even this forum claims few of M-84 were brought to M-84 AB1 standard and not newly built.
http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m84ab1/opis.htm

This guys think only Russians and Ukrainians are producers of 2A46M gun and it's derivatives. I tend to believe in this since building a few guns (a dozen as in question here) is not economicaly feasable in any way.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-81

That being said, I'm still convinced region X had a competent military production capability in the past, but have not produced single tank since early '90s.

Generally this part is extremely funny to me. And as far as propaganda is concerned, I will always stand on the side of the earth people against anyone led by an alien.

Yes, it is extremely funny fact that nation led by an (ancient) alien is actually producing excellent tanks (among the other things) in serious numbers while "earth people" ...print leaflets (which is sometimes ,believe it or not, called propaganda) in attempt to convince buyers they are still capable of producing/assembling tanks from the parts bought all over the world.

Again here is the theme that flags and insignia of country that does not exist are on units of countries that exists.

Agree this is offtopic but it's a good one. There are some things that need to be discussed.

BTW i hope you know why both M-84 AB1 and Degman lost already won tender in Kuwait.

[milivoje02]

No. you're wrong. I just read what the manufacturer say. I mean do you trust the cell phone maker for the features of his cell phone manufacturer?

Yes, I'm wrong for not believing everything that manufacturer claims No, I generally do not believe cell phone manufacturers, especially the fruity one.

Selling weapons is a very legally complex thing. That is, even for the conversion of the material of the bullet cache must go to the beginning, compel all the approval for export from the beginning. So the data of the producer must be accurate because of the permits of the United Nations.

Are you familiar with the concept of marketing? And this about UN permits is a good joke. Do not even bother talking about "sophisticated" mechanism of international weapons trade or (highly molested and bended) international law.

Do countries in the world collaborate on technology exchange worldwide?

Sometimes.

And why are tehnologies of F16 c buy form USA by Japan to make their F 2? Is that coperation same ass between Serbia and Russia, for example, this tank.

No, this is not the same! While Japan is perfectly capable producing most (if not any) key components of the F2, X region IS NOT CAPABLE producing most key components (gun, engine, turrets, sights, sensors, armor). Beside producing licence version of this F-16 Japan is producing it's own designs. It is even planning to produce it's own 5th gen fighter. So, these two examples are not a good comparision at all.

YUGOINPOR SDPR is a state ownership company for the production of weapons in Serbia. 20 factories that are engaged in military activity in Serbia are united in one company and go on the market under that name,by law they cannot do otherwise. Silly part of the conversation because you just go to the website of the army of Serbia and see what I say. m 85 ab1 the whole is assembled in Serbia. From the engine to the grenade penetrator, through a combat awareness commutator everything is being made for him in Serbia .
Technologies emerged from Russia 10 years ago,since the goal is to bring the tank to the level of t 90 tank. M 84 ab1 ia assamble in Velika Plana with engine 1200 Кs (В-46-ТК1).Again i tell you to read the information from the producer and then say something about the producer.

Assembling is not the same as producing. same with the cell phones you have mentioned earlier. Chinese can make you any phone you want (you just send them the specs) and put your logo on it. Think they offer you this for 200 or more ordered. So is this your phone? Did you produced it? Are you capable producing it?

And again you are avoiding clearly answering the questions. Who produces the engine? and the rest?

"This MBT uses Russian-supplied Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armor, Shtora countermeasuressystem, fire control system, Agava-2 thermal imaging system and manyother components."
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m84ab1.htm

As we can see, all domestic components.

"The M-84AB1uses composite armor over the front arc, which consists of steel, titanium, tungsten, aluminum." - I'd like to know which region X domestic company is capable of producing such a complex armour? and what about turret?

Even this forum claims few of M-84 were brought to M-84 AB1 standard and not newly built.
http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/m84ab1/opis.htm

This guys think only Russians and Ukrainians are producers of 2A46M gun and it's derivatives. I tend to believe in this since building a few guns (a dozen as in question here) is not economicaly feasable in any way.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-81

That being said, I'm still convinced region X had a competent military production capability in the past, but have not produced single tank since early '90s.

Generally this part is extremely funny to me. And as far as propaganda is concerned, I will always stand on the side of the earth people against anyone led by an alien.

Yes, it is extremely funny fact that nation led by an (ancient) alien is actually producing excellent tanks (among the other things) in serious numbers while "earth people" ...print leaflets (which is sometimes ,believe it or not, called propaganda) in attempt to convince buyers they are still capable of producing/assembling tanks from the parts bought all over the world.

Again here is the theme that flags and insignia of country that does not exist are on units of countries that exists.

Agree this is offtopic but it's a good one. There are some things that need to be discussed.

BTW i hope you know why both M-84 AB1 and Degman lost already won tender in Kuwait.

UN permissions in the arms trade are most important and control is rigorous. Because even for not breaking the logistics conditions of tranapoets, penalties are paid and may result in UN sanctions. So the data from the producers is very accurate on this point. It is a subject of international trade law, for those who have studied economics.
Again YUGOINPORT state-owned company formed by the merger of all the companies that produce wepons in Serbia.
They can go to the market by law to come up with an offer they can perform. That you found is not the manufacturer's site. On the manufacturer's website it says everything.
Countries often buy technology to catch up with the environment. this is what serbia did on this tank. has purchased technology from russia to reach the capacity to produce the tank at the desired level.
Again tank M 84 AB1 we totally produce in Serbia from the forge to the production line. For the engine thinks you haven't read it well,I wrote that its made in factory Velika Plana(company in YUGOINPORT sistem). That factory made engines and all components relating to vehicle propulsion and basic chassis.It even produces parts for polish PT 91,co-ops are very common.
Gun, engine, turrets, sights, sensors, armor all are Made in Serbia( look at the list of companies of YUGOINPORT(20 Serbian copanies ar in it).M 84 AB1 is enterd in Serbian armament. There are currently 20 of them. And it was decided as a modernization of the domestic tank and the whole folt would be replaced as needed.Again it should be quoted from reliable sources. imagine your doctor setting up a treatment from various in consultation with internet site sites and not from the experience gained in college. Even your site confirms that the tekn is being made in Serbia.
Croatia almost gave up on domestic weapons. they plan to buy everything from the NATO allies. Which is a very bad fact, because there was a great opportunity for cooperation between Serbia and Croatia. On the other hand, in the era of military neutrality, Serbia has invested a lot in new products of the domestic military industry and you should look at it on the site of its manufacturer.
As far as Japan f 2 is concerned, this is a positive example of cooperation,technology transfer and workshare between Japan and the U.S. It's a positive thing. I do not plan to say anything bad about the Japanese because there must be some subtle people who understand the trade law.
Information is most trusted by manufacturers. Because it has to legally stand behind its product, especially in the arms trade area. Because in reality, sanctions can easily be imposed on the exporting country.

[Zuikaku]

Is that hard to say which company produces gun, turret and armour?! Since it's pretty obvious that engine is MTU and gun is of russian origin.
I gave you easily verified facts. I asked you few simple questions (not provocations) and instead of answering you feel offended and keep repeating what producer claims. because it is fact that producers do not engage themselves in activities such as marketing or making things look more good than they really are.
And every source (yours and mine) talk about UPGRADING and modernization package.
Do you even know the difference between modernization, upgrading, assembling, licence building or building?? These are not the same things.

Read again your own link very carefully:
https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank

It talks nothing about ordering new tanks. but it talks a lot about what can be "upgraded", installed or modernized.

and anyway with factories spawning dozens of brand newand superior M-84AB1s it is highly unlogical and unlikely that donation of 30 russian T-72s woul'd be needed at all! They don't need this if they are building new, better, tanks of their own. But the fact is Serbia got something like 200 M-84s with most of them being unserviceable and the rest critically worn out. And that is why they needed this donation. They just do not have capacity to produce spare parts needed to overhaul existing M-84 fleet. And the same is with croatian and slovenian M-84 fleet. So just ,please, stop talking about X region being in serious tank building business today.

And you look at the UN through some rosy glasses it seems. except if embarghoes are enforced, weapon exports are state to state relations and UN is certainly not customer support for dissapointed weapon buyers.

Really? Who can impose sanctions if wepon user is not satisfied with the product?! see, weapons are not sold online like cell phones. It is very complex process that includes testing, and evaluating. These are done by experts. If they want to buy a faulty wepon or if they are incopetent that's completely different story. but international comunity certainly won't sanction Japan if Thailand is not satisfied with armoured protection of freshly bought japanese tanks.

I don't have anything against military industry of the X region but we need to stay with both of our feets on the ground!

And again ,you failed to answer why both Serbia and Croatia lost already won Kuwait tank tender, even if Kuwaitis wanted to buy Degman (M-84AB1 was second placed) and the producer's leafleats said they coul'd deliver new tanks in time. Do you know why?

[milivoje02]

Kuwait gow for US Abrams(10 ears ago). Logical choice for a country that does not produce its own tanks and which relies on its greatest ally.
All parts for M 84 AB1 are manufactured by factories located within the company YUGOINPORT lin of list of factory(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/linkovi/partneri)
They produce all the components for that tank.
Serbia is not a country without tanks. so she doesn't need a re-issue of 500 new ones.Plan for fleat is 250 m 84 ab1 (50new) and 200 t 55 modernized.
Opinions are opinions. and the law is the law.
I generally do not understand the direction of this conversation because we both agree that the modern variant of the m 84 tank is M84 AB1 in the Serbian army
and was made with the help of buying technology from Russia(like Japan from USA f 16 c). So it needs to be inserted into the tech tree.
International trade laws must be obeyed because the opposite leads to the sanctioning of actions.

[Zuikaku]

Kuwait gow for US Abrams(10 ears ago). Logical choice for a country that does not produce its own tanks and which relies on its greatest ally.

So ,according to you, logical choice for Kuwaiti government was to acquire tank that didn't won the contest and that was also the tank they didn't want in the fisrst place. Seems as logical as donating tanks to the country that is mass producing superior tanks.
You really don't know the answer, right? That is pretty bad since answer on this question is crucial for understanding the problems we are talking about here.

All parts for M 84 AB1 are manufactured by factories located within the company YUGOINPORT lin of list of factory(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/linkovi/partneri)
They produce all the components for that tank.

although links you have provided claims all of electronics and most of the armoured protection is imported.
And you still didn't answer which companies produce guns, turrets and engines, since it is great economical inovation producing tank guns, engines and other stuff on such a wide scale... like dozen or so.

Serbia is not a country without tanks. so she doesn't need a re-issue of 500 new ones.

So they took 30 russian T-72s just for fun and target practice.

Plan for fleat is 250 m 84 ab1 (50new) and 200 t 55 modernized.

There are some fundamental differences between plans and reality.

Opinions are opinions. and the law is the law.

And market practice is market practice just like the law of the fittest and stronger.

I generally do not understand the direction of this conversation

I asked you a few simple questions and you have failed to give me viable answers but you are rather questioning wisdom of divine Emperor (ancient) alien and his Imperial Forces and Truk HQ!

because we both agree that the modern variant of the m 84 tank is M84 AB1 in the Serbian army
and was made with the help of buying technology from Russia(like Japan from USA f 16 c). So it needs to be inserted into the tech tree.

no, we don't agree on that. You are the one agreeing on that. I agree we disagree!
also buying components is not buying technology. When I see Serbia licence producing Shtora system or Kontakt 5 armor ot tank gun, that is technological transfer. No country in x region is capable producing this yet.

International trade laws must be obeyed because the opposite leads to the sanctioning of actions.

And all tresspasser will be shot I see you are idealist who sleptover past 10-20 years. You know what international laws are? This:
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi

[milivoje02]

Kuwait bought the tanks back in 1991,amount of 200 m 84 tenks.
Serbia and Croatia in 2004 came forward for modernization and the American tenk abrams won.Because it's a better tank.
Sarbia has bought all the technology that goes into the tank t 90 a because the m 84 ab1 is intended as a Serbian variant of the russian tank.Currently she has produced 20 pieces of m 84 ab1.
Video of tank(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3O6pkCe9SI)
web data(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84AS)
manufacturer data(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank)
That link from my previous post. so when you hit it there are pictures with companies where all the parts for that tank and many others are manufactured. click on the image to go to that company website. and here's the answer to where and in what factory in serbia what are they doing.
A lot can be said, but the information from the manufacturer is still data from the company that brought the product to the market and is more credible than your vanity. and there really is no need to comment. This is the information from the manufacturers, it is the most credible source of data.
When you are a small country you have to respect the UN. Example Serbia has 2 helicopters mi 24. and it cannot carry out their repair because they were imported during the sanctions, bouth them from Ukraine (no paper). So the UN licenses for arms trade are very important and the information itself must be credible about them.
I'm indifferent to japanese so i don't care.
My claims are backed up by data from the manufacturers and yours in pure vanity.
So I don't see the decency to continue this conversation.
For further nonsense, see the site of the gun maker you are talking about.

[Zuikaku]

Kuwait bought the tanks back in 1991,amount of 200 m 84 tenks.
Serbia and Croatia in 2004 came forward for modernization and the American tenk abrams won.Because it's a better tank.

Again you seems to be confused with modernization and purchase of new tanks.
So without answers given by you, I'll tell you the story. In 2004 Kuwait decided to expand and modernize existing tank fleet. Serbia and Croatia offered modernization packages together with building additional tanks. They (Croatia) won, Kuwitis prefered M-84 over Abrams since they were familiar with the type, it was easier to maintain and it was better suited for specified needs of Kuwaiti army.
Who coul'd tell that with tender won the problems woul'd come?! Well, the problems started to show pretty quick. they got assembly yard but most of the parts and components needed to be imported to actualy build or modernize new tanks. Most producers from the EX state that were subcontraries and produced various tank parts were closed or unable to revive the old production (retooling is rather expensive, and completely economically unnatendable for small serial production). Problems were especially significant with the turrets (no factory in region was able to cast turrets anymore), turret drives, transmission, engines, optics... also, many documentation was lost in war. So Croats (aided by some friendly ,but completely unneccessary, US arm twisting) realised they can not carry out the contract in time or at all and decided to quit to avoid penalties. Kuwaitis then went to the Serbs (second placed offer) and they got the job. At least it seemed so, but after initial enthusiasm faded eway, they encountered the same problems as Croats. So they walked away from the deal as well. at this stage it seemed Kuwaitis were still very interested in the M-84 so they proposed the tanks to be produced (and existing modernized) jointly by Serbia and Croatia. Ofcourse, same problems plagued the deal. After that Americans won the deal.

But you knew all that, didn't you??

Sarbia has bought all the technology that goes into the tank t 90 a because the m 84 ab1 is intended as a Serbian variant of the russian tank.Currently she has produced 20 pieces of m 84 ab1.
Video of tank(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3O6pkCe9SI)
web data(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84AS)
manufacturer data(https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... attle-tank)

Produced and brought up to M-84AB1 standard is not the same.
Buying T-90 components from Russia and producing them by own is also not the same.

That link from my previous post. so when you hit it there are pictures with companies where all the parts for that tank and many others are manufactured. click on the image to go to that company website. and here's the answer to where and in what factory in serbia what are they doing.
A lot can be said, but the information from the manufacturer is still data from the company that brought the product to the market and is more credible than your vanity. and there really is no need to comment. This is the information from the manufacturers, it is the most credible source of data.

Too bad VW or Malyshev Factory customers didn't knew that
Seriously I always thought companies use marketing and advertising to stretch reality to the limits of unreal. But i might be wrong. Or it is just the vanity consuming my mind...
But sometimes you do sound like Yugoimport manager

I'm indifferent to japanese so i don't care.

This is utterly irrelevant for the matter we are discussing here.

My claims are backed up by data from the manufacturers and yours in pure vanity.

My facts are based on reality, common sense and laws of economy. If I remember correctly, except frantically posting the links of the manufacturer you have not given any other data. Or answered any of my questions.

So I don't see the decency to continue this conversation.
For further nonsense, see the site of the gun maker you are talking about.

The real gun maker or the one that can make living by producing a dozen of barrels per decade? Because the latter one is really nothing else but nonsense.

Live long and prosper!

[milivoje02]

By your logic Japan then does not manufacture f 2 but buys parts licensed from Lockheed Martin corporation? Or in this case you trust the manufacturer?
Your logic is not reliable. there must be some determinants about the accuracy of the information. Say the information in your ID card. Are they written out of kidding or did the state have to stand behind them? This is what i'm talking about though that the data from the manufacturers is the most reliable when it comes to the product.
If you have any knowledge of trade and the rule of law, you would know that there are legal restrictions on arms trafficking. This means that the country must obtain a license to export the weapons that will be standardized first. then to determine if the country is in some view of restrictions by UN. these are the laws by which it is legally operated. I gave you an example with a helicopter in a previous post. So the data of the manufacturers are the most accurate when it comes to military equipment.
COUNTRIES BUY TECHNOLOGIES AND IMPLEMENT IT IN HOME PRODUCTS.JAPAN PURCHASED F 16 TECHNOLOGY FROM USA. SERBIA PURCHASES TECHNOLOGY FOR RUSSIA FOR T 90 TENK AND IMPLEMENTED IN M 84 AB1
2019 Serbia has produced 20 new tanks. In domestic capacity M 84 ab1(https://www.yugoimport.com/cir/proizvodi/tenk-m-84ab1-0 ).
and will advance the entire fleet to that level. Technology was introduced into production capacity back in 2017 so this tank should be inserted at least X group teh tree.
I don't like double stnards around units.And this is what happens here,because this tank has been in existence for over 10 years and devolopers will not put it in(m 84 ab1),not even in the technology tree.
Serbia assembles tanks in YUGOINPORT(Velika Plana factory,and Kovin factory).
Last month it has delivered the first 100 of the 272 Pakistani tanks t 55 sent for modernization(https://www.yugoimport.com/cir/proizvod ... de-package).
And Lazar 2? Lazar 3? Nora b 52? Serbia produce them,and sell.
Croatia currently they can only produce armored vehicles Patria(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_AMV) ,neither was she inserted into them.they switched to buying from allies.