T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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double post
Last edited by Zuikaku on Nov 04 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018
Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018
Buzzbrad wrote: Nov 04 2018

They still have access to T region equipment due to most of their modern units falling under that category.
Their most modern equipment is under X region (from Lazar to Kobac). Please reconsider this decision since if they are using both T and X region equipment it becomes very messy. It is not realistic for these regions to use T equipment group and X region has more than enough of their own designs.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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German uses units From G and E gropu. French uses units from F and E group. Why it would be problematic to the successor countries of Yugoslavia to use equipment from its past, that is, Yugoslavia an to stay in their T group (X Yugoslav (SR 1936 and SR Ultimate only)) . Countries of ex yugoslavia(Serbia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Croatia,Bosnia) need to stay in the T group because the T group is predicted for scenario 2020+. It's easier to stay in T gropu because the X group would then have to be assigned with units for 2020+ scenarios,and this would be similar to making a new group. X group to be able to be a competitor in scenarios 2020+ It has to be enriched,it is better to stay in the T group with adding of units.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018 German uses units From G and E gropu. French uses units from F and E group. Why it would be problematic to the successor countries of Yugoslavia to use equipment from its past, that is, Yugoslavia an to stay in their T group (X Yugoslav (SR 1936 and SR Ultimate only)) . Countries of ex yugoslavia(Serbia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Croatia,Bosnia) need to stay in the T group because the T group is predicted for scenario 2020+. It's easier to stay in T gropu because the X group would then have to be assigned with units for 2020+ scenarios,and this would be similar to making a new group. X group to be able to be a competitor in scenarios 2020+ It has to be enriched,it is better to stay in the T group with adding of units.
And why woul'd they be able to build things like Zriny tanks, Pz-38s, L-39s, PT-91s, TR-85s, OT-64s and so on? Especially since they got theit own designs in most of these timeframe categories. They even got some designs that never got past the drawing board. Why not giving T region all of the X designs? Why not giving Z region all of the T designs? Some countries just have limited roster of designs - historically. Shoul'd we add them other region designs just to equilize things? And I really do not see any problems with limited historical designs available. You are always free to buy MiG-29 licence from Russia or Leopard 2 tank design from Germany if you feel limited by historically available designs. Even real world cuntries do that. You are not in any way limited by having lack of unit designs.

And since I have spent quite a lot of time researching X region designs and adding many to the unit database while correcting and rebalancing the rest in order to make them more historically accurate (one of updates for my mod was mostly about X region designs), can you please point me out which X region unit designs do you find to be missing? Which tank was ever built by Yugoslavia prior to M-84? Which aircraft is missing? Which gun? Which ship or sub? I even returned some ships built by or for Yugoslavia to region X.

And to conclude this and summarize why I am asking this to be done:
Assigning regions to regional group is not moddable. Unit database is. Knowing that, common users can not assigns regions to regional group. I can not exclude Yugoslavia from T region. Only devs can do that. On the other hand, every user can edit unit database and assign equipment to any wanted regional group. So, you can mod MiG-29 to be buildable by X region. By you, me or other players can not exclude Yugoslavia from T regional group. And that is my point.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018 German uses units From G and E gropu. French uses units from F and E group. Why it would be problematic to the successor countries of Yugoslavia to use equipment from its past, that is, Yugoslavia an to stay in their T group (X Yugoslav (SR 1936 and SR Ultimate only)) . Countries of ex yugoslavia(Serbia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Croatia,Bosnia) need to stay in the T group because the T group is predicted for scenario 2020+. It's easier to stay in T gropu because the X group would then have to be assigned with units for 2020+ scenarios,and this would be similar to making a new group. X group to be able to be a competitor in scenarios 2020+ It has to be enriched,it is better to stay in the T group with adding of units.
And why woul'd they be able to build things like Zriny tanks, Pz-38s, L-39s, PT-91s, TR-85s, OT-64s and so on? Especially since they got theit own designs in most of these timeframe categories. They even got some designs that never got past the drawing board. Why not giving T region all of the X designs? Why not giving Z region all of the T designs? Some countries just have limited roster of designs - historically. Shoul'd we add them other region designs just to equilize things? And I really do not see any problems with limited historical designs available. You are always free to buy MiG-29 licence from Russia or Leopard 2 tank design from Germany if you feel limited by historically available designs. Even real world cuntries do that. You are not in any way limited by having lack of unit designs.
Some designs of units which was developed by Serbia from 2004 to the present day are instead in her T group placed in the X group,It happened by creation Cold War scenario with Yugoslavia.
These units are:
663, "BVT SR-8808 Lazar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
761, "BVT SR-8811 Lazar II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
2329, "M-84D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84)
4741, "B-52K1 Nora 155mm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_B-52)
4721, "D-30/04 SORA 122mm ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sora_122mm )

It means that they originated from Serbia not Yugoslavia. In the Supreme Ruler Gold they were on their place in T group. By creating Cold War scenario they were transferred to Yugoslavia although Yugoslavia did not develop them but Serbia did. And T group was denied of them.
2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) Is a variant of M 84 which was built by Serbia, it sad the name itself.(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... kov?page=5) and on this link there are also upgrades of t 55 takn wich is TR-85s Romania ad Serbian variant. Everyone can buy the license they want, if some one develops a unit what would be taken away? And this happened by making a Cold War scenario. Serbia and Romania many modernizations worked together,and there are units ind T group which came out from this cooperation,let's say one of the links that bonds the countries in the T group.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

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milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018 German uses units From G and E gropu. French uses units from F and E group. Why it would be problematic to the successor countries of Yugoslavia to use equipment from its past, that is, Yugoslavia an to stay in their T group (X Yugoslav (SR 1936 and SR Ultimate only)) . Countries of ex yugoslavia(Serbia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Croatia,Bosnia) need to stay in the T group because the T group is predicted for scenario 2020+. It's easier to stay in T gropu because the X group would then have to be assigned with units for 2020+ scenarios,and this would be similar to making a new group. X group to be able to be a competitor in scenarios 2020+ It has to be enriched,it is better to stay in the T group with adding of units.
And why woul'd they be able to build things like Zriny tanks, Pz-38s, L-39s, PT-91s, TR-85s, OT-64s and so on? Especially since they got theit own designs in most of these timeframe categories. They even got some designs that never got past the drawing board. Why not giving T region all of the X designs? Why not giving Z region all of the T designs? Some countries just have limited roster of designs - historically. Shoul'd we add them other region designs just to equilize things? And I really do not see any problems with limited historical designs available. You are always free to buy MiG-29 licence from Russia or Leopard 2 tank design from Germany if you feel limited by historically available designs. Even real world cuntries do that. You are not in any way limited by having lack of unit designs.
Some designs of units which was developed by Serbia from 2004 to the present day are instead in her T group placed in the X group,It happened by creation Cold War scenario with Yugoslavia.
These units are:
663, "BVT SR-8808 Lazar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
761, "BVT SR-8811 Lazar II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
2329, "M-84D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84)
4741, "B-52K1 Nora 155mm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_B-52)
4721, "D-30/04 SORA 122mm ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sora_122mm )

It means that they originated from Serbia not Yugoslavia. In the Supreme Ruler Gold they were on their place in T group. By creating Cold War scenario they were transferred to Yugoslavia although Yugoslavia did not develop them but Serbia did. And T group was denied of them.
2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) Is a variant of M 84 which was built by Serbia, it sad the name itself.(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... kov?page=5) and on this link there are also upgrades of t 55 takn wich is TR-85s Romania ad Serbian variant. Everyone can buy the license they want, if some one develops a unit what would be taken away? And this happened by making a Cold War scenario. Serbia and Romania many modernizations worked together,and there are units ind T group which came out from this cooperation,let's say one of the links that bonds the countries in the T group.
But Serbia and Yugoslavia both are (or shoul'd be) in X group. And if they are in the same group it does not matter if Serbia developed them or slovenia or Yugoslavia.

PT-91 development is not related to M-84 in any way. The same with TR-85. They are both local upgrades of soviet T-72 tanks. So I disagree any connection with M-84 development exist (which is by the way dead since Serbia, Slovenia and Croatia do not have any resources to continue development).
As for the J-22 Orao it can be easily made available to both X and T regions in the unit database.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
Zuikaku wrote: Nov 04 2018

And why woul'd they be able to build things like Zriny tanks, Pz-38s, L-39s, PT-91s, TR-85s, OT-64s and so on? Especially since they got theit own designs in most of these timeframe categories. They even got some designs that never got past the drawing board. Why not giving T region all of the X designs? Why not giving Z region all of the T designs? Some countries just have limited roster of designs - historically. Shoul'd we add them other region designs just to equilize things? And I really do not see any problems with limited historical designs available. You are always free to buy MiG-29 licence from Russia or Leopard 2 tank design from Germany if you feel limited by historically available designs. Even real world cuntries do that. You are not in any way limited by having lack of unit designs.
Some designs of units which was developed by Serbia from 2004 to the present day are instead in her T group placed in the X group,It happened by creation Cold War scenario with Yugoslavia.
These units are:
663, "BVT SR-8808 Lazar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
761, "BVT SR-8811 Lazar II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_3)
2329, "M-84D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84)
4741, "B-52K1 Nora 155mm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_B-52)
4721, "D-30/04 SORA 122mm ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sora_122mm )

It means that they originated from Serbia not Yugoslavia. In the Supreme Ruler Gold they were on their place in T group. By creating Cold War scenario they were transferred to Yugoslavia although Yugoslavia did not develop them but Serbia did. And T group was denied of them.
2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) Is a variant of M 84 which was built by Serbia, it sad the name itself.(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... kov?page=5) and on this link there are also upgrades of t 55 takn wich is TR-85s Romania ad Serbian variant. Everyone can buy the license they want, if some one develops a unit what would be taken away? And this happened by making a Cold War scenario. Serbia and Romania many modernizations worked together,and there are units ind T group which came out from this cooperation,let's say one of the links that bonds the countries in the T group.
But Serbia and Yugoslavia both are (or shoul'd be) in X group. And if they are in the same group it does not matter if Serbia developed them or slovenia or Yugoslavia.

PT-91 development is not related to M-84 in any way. The same with TR-85. They are both local upgrades of soviet T-72 tanks. So I disagree any connection with M-84 development exist (which is by the way dead since Serbia, Slovenia and Croatia do not have any resources to continue development).
As for the J-22 Orao it can be easily made available to both X and T regions in the unit database.
Yuglosavia fell apart as USSR. obviously, they can not be one,It's history. When the T group was created there were only 2020+ scenarios. and in the creation are taken units from the countries that are classified in it,So Serbia and the countries of the former Yugoslavia.So the breakup of the group T will weakened T group. And get very poorly to the X group and the poor T group. And that would be very bad for people who play with T group and against it. So returning the unit to Serbia and addition to the successors of the former Yugoslavia it would be better.
PT 91 did you think on 2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) ? if you are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84) representation for export in 2004,and upgraded in M-84AS1. M84 is devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. They are also T80 i T90 tanks devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. We can say that T 72 is a very important tank.
TR-85- her is link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-85) The TR-85 is a main battle tank designed for the armed forces of Romania. Based on the TR-77-580 (Romanian-built version of the Soviet T-55 tank). Serbia offer a modernization(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... de-package) based on Romanima modernization of T 55 which is called TR-85.
J-22 Orao is the fruit of cooperation between Yugoslavia and Romania.
X group stay in Cold War,and T group in 2020+ scenarios. T group is formed by modern units that come in the years 2020+. There are no Serbia,Croatian, Slovenian,Bosnian in cold var scenario (1949+). I think it would be too much to build X group for 2020+ scenario and a bad idea to weakens the T group and these countries were included when choosing units for T group happened (many years before the X group). It's the best to correct the error which arose by making X group(Yugoslavia) for cold war scenario. 1949+. so it's best Serbia and other successor countries to stay in T group.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by Zuikaku »

milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
Yuglosavia fell apart as USSR. obviously, they can not be one,It's history. When the T group was created there were only 2020+ scenarios. and in the creation are taken units from the countries that are classified in it,So Serbia and the countries of the former Yugoslavia.So the breakup of the group T will weakened T group.
Not true. T group is overloaded with unit designs and you can really not be serious claiming it is weak in any way. If the certain unit design is missing that you think it shoul'd be included, that is not the reason for calling any regional group "weak".
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
And get very poorly to the X group and the poor T group. And that would be very bad for people who play with T group and against it. So returning the unit to Serbia and addition to the successors of the former Yugoslavia it would be better.
Again, I completely disagree. What about with people playing with A, B, N, V or Y regional groups? Yes, this groups are somewhat poor with designs. Shoul'd we just fill them with random or semi-random units just for someone playing Australia or Phillippines not feeling bad? As far as I can remember, this game tries to be as historic as possible. So, when player chooses to play Papua New Guiney it just can not expect to be able to have wide variety of indigenous designs to build and research. Yes, you can made them up or add somebody others designs, but then you are losing that historical flavour. And reality is not all regions are the same. They do not have the same research available. Yes, we can got some sort of fantasy game where everybody can build anything, but than what is the point of having units of T-80s and Leopard 2A4s on the map? In that case we can have level IX armourand level X armour.
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
PT 91 did you think on 2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) ? if you are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84) representation for export in 2004,and upgraded in M-84AS1. M84 is devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. They are also T80 i T90 tanks devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. We can say that T 72 is a very important tank.
TR-85- her is link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-85) The TR-85 is a main battle tank designed for the armed forces of Romania. Based on the TR-77-580 (Romanian-built version of the Soviet T-55 tank). Serbia offer a modernization(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... de-package) based on Romanima modernization of T 55 which is called TR-85.
Any independant source I got my hands on do not mention anything about serbian role in producing or designing Twardy or TR-85. These are Polish and Romanian modernizations of basic T-72. there is also no connection between yugoslav M-84 and PT-91. Maybe there was proposed cooperation but it never got past the phase of proposition. Again, that is debate for modding unit database file, not region group assignments.
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018 X group stay in Cold War,and T group in 2020+ scenarios. T group is formed by modern units that come in the years 2020+. There are no Serbia,Croatian, Slovenian,Bosnian in cold var scenario (1949+). I think it would be too much to build X group for 2020+ scenario and a bad idea to weakens the T group and these countries were included when choosing units for T group happened (many years before the X group). It's the best to correct the error which arose by making X group(Yugoslavia) for cold war scenario. 1949+. so it's best Serbia and other successor countries to stay in T group.
Yes, I can agree that we completely disagree.
IMHO all that needs to be done is to place Yugoslavia and it's successor states out of T group and into the X group. Neverminding the starting scenario. This is hardcored. Everything else can be modded by players in the unit database. And this is probably less work demanding for BG crew.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote: Nov 05 2018
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
Yuglosavia fell apart as USSR. obviously, they can not be one,It's history. When the T group was created there were only 2020+ scenarios. and in the creation are taken units from the countries that are classified in it,So Serbia and the countries of the former Yugoslavia.So the breakup of the group T will weakened T group.
Not true. T group is overloaded with unit designs and you can really not be serious claiming it is weak in any way. If the certain unit design is missing that you think it shoul'd be included, that is not the reason for calling any regional group "weak".
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
And get very poorly to the X group and the poor T group. And that would be very bad for people who play with T group and against it. So returning the unit to Serbia and addition to the successors of the former Yugoslavia it would be better.
Again, I completely disagree. What about with people playing with A, B, N, V or Y regional groups? Yes, this groups are somewhat poor with designs. Shoul'd we just fill them with random or semi-random units just for someone playing Australia or Phillippines not feeling bad? As far as I can remember, this game tries to be as historic as possible. So, when player chooses to play Papua New Guiney it just can not expect to be able to have wide variety of indigenous designs to build and research. Yes, you can made them up or add somebody others designs, but then you are losing that historical flavour. And reality is not all regions are the same. They do not have the same research available. Yes, we can got some sort of fantasy game where everybody can build anything, but than what is the point of having units of T-80s and Leopard 2A4s on the map? In that case we can have level IX armourand level X armour.
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018
PT 91 did you think on 2285, "PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) ? if you are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84) representation for export in 2004,and upgraded in M-84AS1. M84 is devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. They are also T80 i T90 tanks devoloped on the basis of T 72 tank. We can say that T 72 is a very important tank.
TR-85- her is link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-85) The TR-85 is a main battle tank designed for the armed forces of Romania. Based on the TR-77-580 (Romanian-built version of the Soviet T-55 tank). Serbia offer a modernization(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... de-package) based on Romanima modernization of T 55 which is called TR-85.
Any independant source I got my hands on do not mention anything about serbian role in producing or designing Twardy or TR-85. These are Polish and Romanian modernizations of basic T-72. there is also no connection between yugoslav M-84 and PT-91. Maybe there was proposed cooperation but it never got past the phase of proposition. Again, that is debate for modding unit database file, not region group assignments.
milivoje02 wrote: Nov 04 2018 X group stay in Cold War,and T group in 2020+ scenarios. T group is formed by modern units that come in the years 2020+. There are no Serbia,Croatian, Slovenian,Bosnian in cold var scenario (1949+). I think it would be too much to build X group for 2020+ scenario and a bad idea to weakens the T group and these countries were included when choosing units for T group happened (many years before the X group). It's the best to correct the error which arose by making X group(Yugoslavia) for cold war scenario. 1949+. so it's best Serbia and other successor countries to stay in T group.
Yes, I can agree that we completely disagree.
IMHO all that needs to be done is to place Yugoslavia and it's successor states out of T group and into the X group. Neverminding the starting scenario. This is hardcored. Everything else can be modded by players in the unit database. And this is probably less work demanding for BG crew.
Maybe my English is not the best but I think I wrote well that when the T group was made that the units from all the countries that formed it were classified in it. So by leaving the countries out of it they would have gone alone which countries such as Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia have brought,so it would be considerably weakened T group and X group,and they would have two weak groups. And that's bad. because groups need to be promoted and not destroyed. Poland, Serbia, Slovakia, Romania, Croatia and other countries in T group are surrounded with groups that are very strong(Russia,Germanu,Fracne,Italy) and with the current equipment they are easy prey,with weakening it was even worse.not to mention that they do not have a futuristic option for AA wpons.

I mean, the military teatrar of Europe is a little specific,there are many strong countries on a small space,so there are more weapons. The 2020 scenarios are not historically he's in the future,we are right now in 2018 year. We have another year and 2 months that this scenario becomes becomes current :-) :-) :-) historical scenarios are those who are World war 1 World war 2 and Cold War,and these 2020 are probably a suggestion how the world will be in 2020(2020 global crises and 2020 world) and after that,means to represent the future not past(history) .Of course I hope it is now 2018 everywhere on earth :-)
I support improvement of each group especially neglected,if they are Philippine and Australia neglected they need help,then I need to be improve and never weaken. Sincerely I am playing the European theater more because there is a rich history of conflicts and my country is here too. I think that every group should have a attention and to be stronger, I do not understand which you have against East European countries but I can not agree but I honor everyone opinion.
I started here topic about T group and( Serbia missing units ) which is neglected and I'm trying to figure out the mistakes and shortcomings and I try to consult the devlops for improvement. Weakening is not promotion so I'm against it.

"PT-91 Twardy M 2001 (M84B) (http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... attle-tank)
Tr85 (https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/d ... mor_id=603) Romania
tr85(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... de-package) Serbia
M 84 AS1,upgred of m84AS or m84B or M84 (2001 )(https://www.armyrecognition.com/partner ... 07172.html)(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... attle-tank)(http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... attle-tank)
Yugoimportis serbian militery corporation for production and export Serbian military equipment.
I only write what I know from sites of military and arms fairs that i visited,I can not say anything about some things that I do not know like Lockheed Martin F35 because I'm not very familiar,but with Serbian and Romanian wepons I can.

I think it's better to stay in the T group,and only to be added to the units that are in the X group which are in reality developed in the successor countries of Yugoslavia after its breakup,which itself indicates a mistake that these units are classified as yugoslovenkse because they came about after its breakup.
Cold war was past. not equipped for the future,and it came after 2020 scenario. T group is made for scenario 2020 and it should stay there with all members in it.
the establishment of the T Group was made by units from the countries of the former Yugoslavia and other Eurpope countries which are the weaker countries that were under the influence of the USSR,the sum of their equipment and future development,so it would be not carefully and bad that any of these countries be excluded from the group.In all history Eastern Europe is in danger from west and from the east, and they should really be given the option in the future to devolop a half decent AA midlerange sistem and some advantech tank. because they are easily swallowed from west powers and from East power.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by YoMomma »

Personally i can understand your not satisfied, bigger problem in my opinion is smaller countries are neglected in techs, thats not how the real world works. But hey maybe we can do next Supreme Ruler "Supreme Ruler Vatican" then smaller countries can research that period before moving to WW1 and WW2 :lol: There should be some kind of system where if x tech is research by x ammount of regions it will be faster and cheaper with every region.

Like i proposed before, gaps can be filled in with units they bought and are in orbat. Im keeping with the Netherlands because i know about my own country, but if Netherlands has 5 Leopard 2A5 in orbat, it should have the design. That to me is middle ground and thats how im gonna fill in the gaps for smaller countries. If you dont agree, well you also prolly dont agree with US buillding 75 B2A spirit in 3 years, or Russia building 60 T-14 Armata in 1 year, but well it still happens and that is if they dont expand... Just make the units that are in the database usefull.

In Europe the discussion is very weird, because we are slowly growing towards an European army where every country has a specific role (prolly plan from elite who thought of EU all along). The game is totally not designed for that. So yeah if you wanna bring rl into this there are many arguments, but we are all playing a game, atleast the players.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by milivoje02 »

Yes,that with neglected in techs i seen,in inventory for texnogy there are tehnology form WW1 and WW2 which are somehow unrealistic for moder era 2020. like Helicopter desing Aplication form 1931,Inproved Aircraft Pistols engine from 1941,Electrocadiography from 1903,Moder clothing from 1913. I believe that everyone in Europe are dressed more modern than 1913. :-) :-) :-)
Little attention was given to small countries, I can talk about Europe,when I play modern scenarios without spheres and without units with Serbia which is my country ,Netherlands is in first 4 countries which are attacked and the occupied by Germany. Germany is a serious opponent at the border,and It should give a chance smaller countries can be defended,with units that they can produce,and give them the option to develop units to be able to defended from and do not play too inferiorly against a close great pover. I see Netherlands required a good tenk as it is Leopard 2A5 wich owns it. I like very much AC! Lion multirol in Netherlands teh tree.
In game serbia is not risearcher a Helicopter desing Aplication form 1931 an she is have devoloped in reality a unmanned aircraft Hornet/Strsljen/X-01 Unmanned Helicopter (http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... helicopter) so I'm sure that in other countries have similar problem.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by YoMomma »

There are lots of hidden gems. Did you know Algeria bought over 1000 T-90S from Russia in the past couple of years with lots of artillery and anti air and got a military personel bigger then Egypt? How else you gonna simulate that besides giving Algeria the techs and designs and ofcourse updating the orbats.
I also allied them to Russia, if they move their troops on that puppet from Turkey, you can notice there are several spots it will just cross into Turkey and prolly get shot by patrolling ships. That's how Russia also looses hundreds of troops. Spreading the designs also compensates for this. Since the units that are bought from Algeria or whoever are atleast decent and not some useless WW2 unit that doesnt even do damage.

Algerian military is prolly more ready for combat then German military. A recent investigation in Germany, ordered by the goverment, showed only 20% of military is ready for combat, day to day operations maybe 5% and all subs can't do operations for atleast 6 months because of lack of maintenance.

Do i want that simulated? Ofcourse not we want to see interesting fights.

Looking back on my mod i even did it more carefull (for now), instead of going to T90S with techs for Algeria i only went towards T72 with techs, and i think i add like 30 or 40 techs for that.
Last edited by YoMomma on Nov 06 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by Balthagor »

YoMomma wrote: Nov 06 2018 .. Algeria bought over 1000 T-90S from Russia ... giving Algeria the techs and designs and ofcourse updating the orbats.
If they bought the tanks we should update the orbats but there is no reason to update techs/designs unless they are producing them under licence. Otherwise it's just a trade of units.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by YoMomma »

Balthagor wrote: Nov 06 2018 ... Otherwise it's just a trade of units.
Game doesnt trade this high ammount of units of this kinda class. Tanks and infantry are deployed not in reserves.
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Re: T region group,East Europe Countries,Serbian teh tree.

Post by Nerei »

I cannot find anything to say that it is over 1000 T-90's. Adding up numbers or going by wikipedia I get in the 500-600. The latest numbers are from 2016 but chances of it being significantly higher is low.

I can however find several references to over 1/3 of the Algerian T-90's being locally assembled.

As for why it is probably not higher I would say it is down to a few things.
First off building 400-500 tanks in a few years is just a very impressive achievement. Possible sure but wasteful unless you need the vehicles "now" which would generally only be the case if you want to replace battlefield losses.

Then there is the finer text in the linked articles below. The 2nd article in particular mentions the word "knockdown kit". Basically the majority of the raw construction will be done in Russia with the final fitting out being done in Algeria at a local factory. The Fuchs Algeria ordered from Germany is largely the same story. Think of it as IKEA just with tanks.

The fact that we are dealing with knockdown kits and not complete local assembly means I would really expect that I could find something, anything from Rosoboronexport stating such an order had been signed as it would not be a small success for Russian arms exports.

Naturally if this is enough to be considered local manufacture is another argument entirely. I suspect if we look at some of the other unit designs we will probably find that it has been justification in the past.

link 1

link 2
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