Taxes and Economy need explanation

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irfanahmed1979
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Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by irfanahmed1979 »

I read the manual on steam but it was too general and less detailed. I know that after so many years of development there must be a good knowledge base about the game. True for modding. Now I want to know the following:

1. What exactly does each of the taxes impact? (Especially what are the unemployment and pension taxes, i.e. who pays them and what impact do they have on the economy)
2. Inflation? For a developing country what is the ideal rate and how can it be affected?
3. GDP/C rises and falls. What gives? Is this the boom, bust, depression, recession, etc. cycles being simulated?
4. Is foreign investment, accelerator and multiplier affect modeled?
5. Is having a huge amount of starting money in the treasury bad for the economy?
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Zuikaku
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Zuikaku »

Since income and spending bars confuse most of the players I suggest that BGs implement some sort of hovering dialog menu with some basic explanations when mouse pointer is over each of the income/expense categories. Something similar to minister priorities hovering menus/explanations.
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
irfanahmed1979
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by irfanahmed1979 »

Zuikaku wrote:Since income and spending bars confuse most of the players I suggest that BGs implement some sort of hovering dialog menu with some basic explanations when mouse pointer is over each of the income/expense categories. Something similar to minister priorities hovering menus/explanations.
Yes that would be nice.

Also if the players could be given more information about the type of people and businesses in their economy. I mean they could have some way of showing low income/high income workers or businessmen and the number of corporations, etc. It would be a nice tool to have and this way a player would be able to see more clearly the effects of his actions on the economy of his nation. Plus I agree wih your sig, AI should at times liberate or colonize.
evildari
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by evildari »

not to kill your illusion - but the game does not even manage to calculate the balance right
(check the issue here: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170 )
so any more information about deeper details is wasted - cause even that shown data could be some random value...
and if not - doesn't help much too, cause the final results wont be calculated right for your treasury balance.
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
irfanahmed1979
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by irfanahmed1979 »

evildari wrote:not to kill your illusion - but the game does not even manage to calculate the balance right
(check the issue here: http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170 )
so any more information about deeper details is wasted - cause even that shown data could be some random value...
and if not - doesn't help much too, cause the final results wont be calculated right for your treasury balance.
Yeah, I've read similar issues in older threads also as I was searching for a solution to my current problem: I'm playing a heavily modded and heavily map edited version of the cold war. I've got 4 colonies, yet my treasury is down to 19 trillion dollars (in 1954) from a starting treasury of 39 trillion (the scenario as you know starts in October 1949). I have a daily surplus of approx. 500 million dollars as shown in the budget screen.

I think it's to do with trade and not just any trade but I think somehow my colonies are driving my country into bankruptcy :o I have all ministers locked out (of literally everything from State to military). I have no bulk or auto sales/purchases. The only trade done is through diplomatic offers and those are almost always in my favour. My commodities are piling up (I'm sure it's the contribution of the colonies). However I do see on a daily basis negative daily trade values on most of the commodities. There's no detail as to where all that deficit is coming from.

My hunch is that certain colonies are contributing their commodities at certain prices (for example synthetic oil and rubber are supposed to be expensive than natural ones). Furthermore my domestic sales have little markups on the commodities that can be sold domestically, except for consumer goods which I consider luxury items so I keep that markup around 40% or more. I maybe wrong but this is the best explanation I can come with. However, I did try raising the markup of oil to 40% just to see if it had any affect but it didn't (at least the treasury still sinks). I wish I'd know where are all that money went.

The old threads from SR2020 forums and even steam discussions about people in the past having similar problems blamed them on bugs, corruption in the government, treasury having more than 10 billion dollars, etc.
irfanahmed1979
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by irfanahmed1979 »

Here's a link to a video about the problem. It clearly shows more income than expenses, yet the arrows are all red and pointed downwards. I then show the commodities windows and point towards the negative trade values. The consumer goods are the only ones with a surplus and maybe electricity as that doesn't get sold probably because I've set its production to 100% of demand. I do have to point out that I modded the tech tree to reduce the cost of all social spending(except for social assistance) by 100%. Maybe that is causing some problems?

https://youtu.be/yCoMf4asnm4
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Balthagor
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Balthagor »

We have said many times that once the treasury/economy gets too big, some rounding errors can create strange values. There are shortcuts in place that are needed to get the level of performance we have. Removing those shortcuts would increase economic precision and slow down the game. It's all about the weight of the calculations.
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irfanahmed1979
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by irfanahmed1979 »

Balthagor wrote:We have said many times that once the treasury/economy gets too big, some rounding errors can create strange values. There are shortcuts in place that are needed to get the level of performance we have. Removing those shortcuts would increase economic precision and slow down the game. It's all about the weight of the calculations.
Alright, I'll try with a smaller treasury next time.
evildari
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by evildari »

Balthagor wrote:We have said many times that once the treasury/economy gets too big, some rounding errors can create strange values. There are shortcuts in place that are needed to get the level of performance we have. Removing those shortcuts would increase economic precision and slow down the game. It's all about the weight of the calculations.
...90billions$ per day missing is called a rounding error - nice
not even an infamous german bankster ("millions are peanuts") had the guts stating that..
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Balthagor
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Balthagor »

evildari wrote:...90billions$ per day missing is called a rounding error...
On a treasury of 19 trillion, that's 0.4%. Yes, that's a rounding error.
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evildari
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by evildari »

Balthagor wrote:
evildari wrote:...90billions$ per day missing is called a rounding error...
On a treasury of 19 trillion, that's 0.4%. Yes, that's a rounding error.
On a surplus/deficit of 57000M$ thats 163%, Yes that's definitely not a rounding error !
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Anthropoid
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Anthropoid »

evildari wrote:
Balthagor wrote:
evildari wrote:...90billions$ per day missing is called a rounding error...
On a treasury of 19 trillion, that's 0.4%. Yes, that's a rounding error.
On a surplus/deficit of 57000M$ thats 163%, Yes that's definitely not a rounding error !
Screen caps showing that it persisted for a week or so in game time?

These guys have been pestered by whiners and know-it-alls for years. If you find a real problem, be nice, provide evidence, suggest fixes. If you just want to blow hot air, this response is probably about the only satisfaction you'll receive on these boards.
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Balthagor
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Balthagor »

While some people may not give the most informed feedback, we still appreciate the involvement of the community. While I might disagree with evildar about the importance on this issue, I'm thankful for the level of contribution he's shown.
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evildari
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by evildari »

Screen caps showing that it persisted for a week or so in game time?

These guys have been pestered by whiners and know-it-alls for years. If you find a real problem, be nice, provide evidence, suggest fixes. If you just want to blow hot air, this response is probably about the only satisfaction you'll receive on these boards.
the speaker of the devs already wrote thats an calculation optimization (well thats their understanding) so the formula is used every game for the whole game duration , not just one day - especially the moment i took the screenshots...
And i already offered them a solution: use basic arithmetics like 1+1 = 2, and not treasury=treasury+random number (well that was evil , but it looks random to me)
Sorry that i wont disassemble their executable and do an asm-patch, i also think that would be a major break of the game licence, and is really not my job as a customer.

The reason why i think this is a major issue: (like in real life) it all depends on the money. "It's the economy, stupid"

I would not even wonder why some AI-countries wont get anywhere, just because they cant make additional money to cover this buggy loss.
Building and maintaining an industrial base - costs money and industrial goods (if you have no base - you have to purchase them with ..yes. money)
Same with armed forces, same with research, up to the point that without funds you are not able to meet your population demands and you lose your votes (if playing a democratic region)
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Anthropoid
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Re: Taxes and Economy need explanation

Post by Anthropoid »

And still no screen caps?
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