Correcting In-Game Details and Info

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Spetsnaz Gaming
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#211 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 23 2018

Uh welp,Guess thats it for me
Anyway what i would really like to see added is the diplomatic aspect
Egypt Friendly/Cordial with Russia with an air transit agreement with them
Egypt Cordial with USA
Egypt Hostile towards Turkey and vice versa *yeah turkey,how to start relations 101 call someone a tyrant*
and etc and etc
btw i just wanna appericate the team on the relations during ww2
However i have one simple question mainly out of curiosty
we all knew Adolf adored the egyptians,and islam
he was quoted saying that if the muslims won at the battle of tours then the germanic race would be the best in the world
and that Had we been on our own, we could have emancipated the Moslem countries dominated by France; and that would have had enormous repercussions in the Near East, dominated by Britain, and in Egypt. But with our fortunes linked to those of the Italians, the pursuit of such a policy was not possible. All Islam vibrated at the news of our victories. The Egyptians, the Irakis and the whole of the Near East were all ready to rise in revolt. Just think what we could have done to help them, even to incite them, as would have been both our duty and in our own interest! But the presence of the Italians at our side paralysed us; it created a feeling of malaise among our Islamic friends, who inevitably saw in us accomplices, willing or unwilling, of their oppressors. For the Italians in these parts of the world are more bitterly hated, of course, than either the British or the French. The memories of the barbarous, reprisals taken against the Senussi are still vivid. Then again the ridiculous pretensions of the Duce to be regarded as The Sword of Islam evokes the same sneering chuckle now as it did before the war. This title, which is fitting for Mahomed and a great conqueror like Omar, Mussolini caused to be conferred on himself by a few wretched brutes whom he had either bribed or terrorized into doing so. We had a great chance of pursuing a splendid policy with regard to Islam. But we missed the bus, as we missed it on several other occasions, thanks to our loyalty to the Italian alliance!
-An Unconfirmed quote from Hitler
Now why Egypt is Cordial with Germany is because the will of a single man? or did the BG team take into extra research?

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#212 Post by Balthagor » Jan 23 2018

Spetsnaz Gaming wrote:...Now why Egypt is Cordial with Germany is because the will of a single man? or did the BG team take into extra research?
The relations between regions were first set for modern maps during the development of SR2020 and that was 11 years ago. I don't remember how much it's been reviewed since then. It certainly hasn't been reviewed since SRU was released which was about 4 years ago.
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#213 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 23 2018

Ah actually that was 1936-1942 maps but yeah sure
About the Rafales Mr.Chris
if you literally and i mean LITERALLY readed the wikepedia page it would say we would recieve an additin of 40+ Planes rather than the original deal
so thats why i added an extra 4 units and not just 1

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#214 Post by Balthagor » Jan 23 2018

I'm not seeing it. Quote me the line please?
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#215 Post by Balthagor » Jan 23 2018

Nerei wrote:...My main argument for including both the T-90A and S variant is to have a way to differentiate ... the T-90A and T-90M Bhishma...
K, updated IDs re T-90

2295, T-90A
2317, T-90M
2399, T-90MS

Stats can be reviewed in another pass.

Please update orbat change requests accordingly.
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#216 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 23 2018

Correction:
I meant 24 not 40
Quote:
In June 2016, Egypt started negotiations with Dassault to acquire 12 additional Rafales which was an option on the original contract An Egyptian delegation visited France in November 2017 to move negotiations forward, with a deal for the additional dozen possible before year-end.

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#217 Post by Nerei » Jan 24 2018

Keep in mind that each fighter unit is 18 aircraft strong. 36 aircraft is 2 fighter units not 5. 5 units would be somewhere around 90 aircraft.

Also the thing to keep in mind is delivered vehicles not ordered. In general people tend to forget that it is the delivery date that matters.
If order date is what matters you need to add another 3 Ford class aircraft carriers to the US as the orders have been placed.
This is also why I am saying 8 submarines for Pakistan or 1000 Altay in 2020 is not realistic.

Currently over 3 years into the contract Dassault has delivered 14 aircraft out of 24. At the 2017 start it was 6. There is also outstanding orders from Qatar, India and France which going by the manufacturers webpage accounts for somewhere around 80-90 aircraft. That is not including a potential Egyptian order which may or may not happen.
For Comparison in early to mid 2017 a total of around 157 Rafale had been built (first delivery according to wikipedia was in 2001). Building another 100 in 2 years sound quite extreme to me.

I honestly doubt everyone else will just wait patiently for their orders while Egypt gets these additional aircraft.
Qatar and India both have an interest in getting these aircraft and the French airforce already have had some of their aircraft diverted to Egypt.
Might Egypt have received 24 aircraft in 2020? Probably. 36? Far less likely assuming Dassault does not ignore all other orders.
Balthagor wrote:
Nerei wrote:...My main argument for including both the T-90A and S variant is to have a way to differentiate ... the T-90A and T-90M Bhishma...
K, updated IDs re T-90

2295, T-90A
2317, T-90M
2399, T-90MS

Stats can be reviewed in another pass.

Please update orbat change requests accordingly.
This is fairly simple as the Bhishma is only used by India. Replace all Indian ID 2295 T-90 with ID 2317. India should also know this design instead of 2295. I guess you could also add it to region group Q.
Also can we name ID 2317 something like "T-90 Bhishma"? I have heard it referred to as both T-90M and T-90S and it can become confusing as S is the standard export version and M is also a 2017 Russian upgrade to the T-90A.

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#218 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 24 2018

Nerei my dear friend
If you saw the SpeedShet it would say 1 Aircraft in 2017,5 aircrafts on 2020
What i mean is the 5 Aircrafts on 2020
I know what im saying.

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#219 Post by number47 » Jan 24 2018

Spetsnaz Gaming wrote:Nerei my dear friend
If you saw the SpeedShet it would say 1 Aircraft in 2017,5 aircrafts on 2020
What i mean is the 5 Aircrafts on 2020
I know what im saying.
So, you're saying Egypt will have 90 Rafale multirole fighters in 2020, and that wiki is supporting this?
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#220 Post by Balthagor » Jan 24 2018

Nerei wrote:Also can we name ID 2317 something like "T-90 Bhishma"?
Done
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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#221 Post by Nerei » Jan 24 2018

The spreadsheet uses default in-game units as measurement of vehicles. The default strength of multirole fighter units is 18 so 5 units in 2020 is as mentioned by Number47 somewhere around 90 airframes total (technically could be anything from 73 to 107).
Given that Egypt currently operates 14 aircraft that means roughly 75 additional aircraft have to be produced in 2 years just for Egypt.
That is not going to happen. It is far, far more than Dassault expects to produce in total for 2018 and 2019.

Even if Egypt got every single aircraft Dassault expect to produce in 2018 and 2019 it would still only add up to a bit more than 3 multirole units and that is if we include already delivered aircraft.

Egypt should have the full order of 24 aircraft by the end of 2018 but beyond that pretty much all aircraft are scheduled to go to either Qatar or India. France is basically not getting any in the relevant time-period so there is not even the option of shifting aircraft from France to Egypt (That actually happened for the current order which is why I am mentioning it).
Qatar and India is probably interested in getting their aircraft sooner rather than later given the political climate around the Himalayas and the Persian gulf and as mentioned even if they did it would still not be enough.

Yes Egypt has the option to sign for an additional 12 aircraft but Qatar already did that in December and those aircraft are not expected to be produced until after 2020.

Going by the best numbers I can find Egypt will have 24 aircraft in 2020, Qatar will have 22 and India will have 11.

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#222 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 24 2018

Well thats that i guess

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#223 Post by Nerei » Jan 26 2018

I did a bit of digging and I am going to question the in the spreadsheet listed numbers for the Altay. I already did a bit on it but I decided to dig a bit deeper. The main reason is that Turkey have yet to actually start manufacturing any vehicles. The Turkish government even cancelled the contract with Otokar due to costs. We may not even know who win the eventual contract until mid 2018!

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/0 ... r-in-2018/

Naturally that is assuming nothing goes wrong.

Otokar has some experience building these vehicles having built the first prototypes but assuming anyone else wins they will likely have to start out setting up a production line and the question is if they want to do that without already having the contract.

Also going by Otokars own webpage the first batch of 250 vehicles was planned over a 5 year period. This is about one vehicle a week on average which does actually not sound bad. It beats the production rate of the ROK's related K2 Black Panther form what I understand.

https://www.otokar.com/en-us/corporate/ ... -tank.aspx


If combined with this article from before the Turkish government cancelled the contract with Otokar and put everything on open bid that points towards Otokar being able to start mass production in the next 18-22 months everything points towards there being very few vehicles in 20202 indeed given that Turkey hopes to have selected the manufacturer of the Altay 18 months before the 2020 starting date.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/koc-aw ... tay-105954

Also keep in mind that this contract is "only" for the production of 250 vehicles not 1000.

http://www.janes.com/article/75818/prop ... altay-tank


There is also the issues with the engine. Turkey want an entirely indigenous engine pack free of issues with licenses and the like which is actually quite problematic to get. It forced the cancellation of the current contract due to issues with the Austrian government.
Will this cause delays? Well that depends on how messed up the rest of the bidding process is but in general it certainly would make it problematic for a quick 2018 production start.
Having a vehicle with foreign licensed parts certainly will be a nightmare for exports which is one of the reasons Turkey does not want that.

https://quwa.org/2017/11/27/turkey-invi ... velopment/


The real question for the Altay is not "are all 1000 potential vehicles build in 2020?" but "are there more than the 4 prototypes at all?" My guess is that it is probably not that many. I would say it is worth considering if Turkey should even know the design in January 2017 given all these problems. For 2020 we can argue it should be a known design sure. We might even argue that there should be some mass produced vehicles but it sure is not going to be 1000. I would say 2 units (or 88 individual vehicles) is probably on the generous side.
Also no Pakistani vehicles would not be produced before this is sorted out either. Note the problems with the engines. Turkey is going to have a hard time producing vehicles for reselling that contains the intellectual property of effectively a 3rd party government.


This article is nice as it has breakdown of the recent history of the development of the Altay.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/tu ... ect-05012/


Again people can we please consider production times? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with sugar on top?
Most governments today does in fact not run with emergency wartime production tables. Setting up a large number of parallel production lines are somewhat expensive and most governments does not want to pay for this.
Also the wikipedia article is actually listed as probably being outdated in places so please ignore that. You will also notice if you look at its sources that most online sources are retrieved in 2016 or earlier. That is fairly ancient in this case.

Seriously it is quite relevant as again taken to an extreme case it means I can argue that USS John F. Kennedy CVN-79 and USS Enterprise CVN-80 should be present in 2020 as it unlike some of the vehicles being given out in 2020 is actually under production and about as likely to be finished as some of them. That is to say they are not.

The Pakistani Navy Yuan submarines is a good example as they are all listed for 2020 despite (according to wikipedia) the 4 vessels being built in the PRC being expected to be finished by 2024 and the 4 locally built submarines being done in 2028 which for the record the latter of which (again according to wikipedia) is 1-4 years later than the next two Gerald R. Ford class carriers hence why I use them as examples.
Last edited by Nerei on Jan 26 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#224 Post by Spetsnaz Gaming » Jan 26 2018

Damn
You can literally find anything can u? heh *sarcasm btw*
Can i have a Question?
You see ah apparently since u can dig stuff up i ll ask a non related real life question
Egyptian Biological and chemical weapons
We do have an entire depertment,but details are lacking,maybe you can find something?
And could they effectively get deployed on lets say Israel? Hejaz? The Nile of Sudan? Coastal Libya?

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Re: Correcting In-Game Details and Info

#225 Post by Nerei » Jan 26 2018

I can try and look. No guarantees though.
These are a bit harder to track down as they are far easier hide than a nuclear weapons programs with there being no need for large enrichment facilities with gas-centrifuges or plutonium breeder reactors if you want to move up to the next tier.

Chemical weapons depending on what you want can actually be manufactured under extremely simple conditions by not that skilled persons. The prime example is the Tokyo metro Sarin attack perpetrated by the doomsday cult Aum Shinrikyo.
Sure it was not high grade pure Sarin but on the other hand this was a bunch of loonies in homemade chemistry lab. They apparently also tried their hands on VX but I would have to try and look a bit to see how successful that was. My guess would be not very successful or at least they did not produce enough as they resorted to Sarin. VX is basically Sarin 2.0 with a far better retention time.
Without sourcing any information I would say that Egypt is entirely capable of manufacturing chemical weapons simply due to the fact that it is not that hard and Egypt does have chemical industry far more capable than Aum Shinrikyo.

Biological weapons really depends on if you got the right strains of virus (or bacteria) on hand. Assuming you do it might be as simple as having a sealed container where you can add growth media. Again Egypt would at least be capable of doing it.


So in both cases it will really be a case of is Egypt actively doing it as it like most countries are entirely capable of doing it.
But I will try and do a bit of research.

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