Road/Railroad Deletion

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Leafgreen
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#16 Post by Leafgreen » Aug 15 2016

A big +1. We used to be able to do it in... 2010?

Far as realism, it's as realistic as somebody selling Japan electricity commodity. And perhaps my nation is so progressive that we rip up the old roads and recycle the materials/rails when making new ones. :-)
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mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#17 Post by mrgenie » Sep 04 2016

PleXD wrote:Before being able to Destroy Roads/Rails there needs to be a way for the AI to build new ones.
And in a game like this it alot harder then you might think
actually, I did this in a more simple approach for civilization in the Lands and Roads mod for Soma who requested me to make this for him.

So I know it's damn hard even in a game where cities/resources are much easier to connect.

right now there isn't any AI method for building roads/railroads which is a very negative point in the game.

Because I usually setup me defenses exactly there!!! i.e. in a current game I play france. After conquered Europe I got messed up with Russia
then India who already had over 100 unit productions and then china on top.

after so many wars, despite my own production over 300 for land, i was left with less then 2000 units.

then the USA attacked me. They already control 100% of north and south america and all the islands.
They have a production about 100 land units, but accumulated over 8000 units already!

they invaded me in china, which I could defend, Thailand and at the same time in mid -africa they attacked other countries before
attacking me from the south (i also control north africa completely)

since I had only 2000 units left, of which 1500 arty, so not much tanks/infantry to defend with, and their huge airforce which is technologically far more
superior then the tech I can get with france, they punched through me very easily.

to stop their advance, I build: points of defense (Airbase, fortification, gun emplacement, radar, air defense and barracks)
then I interconnected everything with roads in the sahara.
Then i setup a 2nd row of supply distribution centers: airbase and 2 supply depots.

Now my units have 100 supply all roads in the sahara blocked by my "points of defense"
so his units with supply under 10% in the sahara run against my much weaker army and I simply smash them because my units repair fast, move fast, resupply fast and his
units simply run dry!

Usually I build a line of complexes with fortifications and then stack of doom: infantery, tanks first line then 2nd line arty and AA and 3rd line the weaker arty with more range

usually you can expect a small country like the netherlands easily to hold of an enemy very long (if the enemy is too big, it'll loose anyway)
but a country like france, without expansion, with enough mil supplies, such a line-stack-of-doom can easily combat USA, Germany, Russia, UK, India, all at once!!!

So I consider this cheating and came up with my new idea, to not build such a line now in this game, as it would allow me to fight at least 1000 USA at the same time in the game if I build again such a line of doom.

and this I used the lack of supply in the sahara to my advance for me to build roads, railroads and supplies while knowing the AI doesn't do that.

this also lead me to turn the tide and smash his huge army of higher tech units with my low tech 4 times smaller army

another "cheat" I think.

Wouldn't be possible if the AI would increase supplies and build roads/railroads!

So, why I'm telling this:
to show you, it doesn't matter if it's difficult to implement. This game is getting towards perfection! And building roads/railroads/supplies is the next step for the AI to get closed
to perfection. It needs to be done. Because I can "cheat" this in the sahara, middle east, siberia, etc..

they need to implement something for the AI to overcome such lack of supply areas by building good infrastructure!

no matter how hard it's to implement, it must be done.

AI tactics military is already very close to perfection.

so now, BG needs to tend more on nation building I think.

maybe not only agri/rubber/timber/coal/oil/iron/nuclear/energy/goods/industry/military

and keep infrastructure it is right now..

but the next steps for SR:

ai handle infrastructural building
instead of the above mentioned 11 resources in the resources tab.. maybe more towards civilization with 20-30 resources.. and more..
maybe more nation and city building..

this game is the best tactical game on the market in my opinion and so damn fast even on slower cpu's with a huge realistic earth map

and I'd love them to start supporting modding the source code...
I'd be more then happy to start programming nation building civilization alike to this game, including AI coding for it.

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#18 Post by Nerei » Sep 05 2016

mrgenie wrote:I'd love them to start supporting modding the source code...
I agree that would be great. That degree of modding would open far more options than what is there today. My coding skills are not good enough that I would try this so I am sticking to graphics but considering how long some people have been in this community I assume there might be a few people with some coding skills out there that would throw time at this.

It would also offer a mostly free source of idea testing and I would assume it would be easier to implement say AI improvements if using a mod as a template compared to writing it from scratch.

Even if not I am fairly sure having say an improved AI or expanded diplomacy mod would add to the quality of the game.


There naturally are issues with going say partial open source but everything considered I think it would be a net boon for the game.

I know this would naturally be up to BG and I respect whatever they decide but I certainly think this has merit and is definitely worth considering.

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#19 Post by mrgenie » Sep 05 2016

Nerei wrote:
mrgenie wrote:I'd love them to start supporting modding the source code...
I agree that would be great. That degree of modding would open far more options than what is there today. My coding skills are not good enough that I would try this so I am sticking to graphics but considering how long some people have been in this community I assume there might be a few people with some coding skills out there that would throw time at this.

It would also offer a mostly free source of idea testing and I would assume it would be easier to implement say AI improvements if using a mod as a template compared to writing it from scratch.

Even if not I am fairly sure having say an improved AI or expanded diplomacy mod would add to the quality of the game.


There naturally are issues with going say partial open source but everything considered I think it would be a net boon for the game.

I know this would naturally be up to BG and I respect whatever they decide but I certainly think this has merit and is definitely worth considering.
To improve the AI on military tactics is virtually impossible for any starter. BG is so far ahead of 100% of the competition. I doubt any programmer of any game is ahead of that.
But I really lack the "nation building complexity" in the game. And the AI is doing not much to that point, nothing spectacular anyway. It does build more land production, air production and such.
sometimes building additional industries... but that part of the game is by far from completion. And here it is where modders, could improve the game tremendously.

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#20 Post by George Geczy » Sep 05 2016

Thanks for the discussion on this. As pointed out above, the fact that you can't stop paying for the maintenance on roads is a big reason why many players want to scrap them, but beyond the UI issues is the fact (also pointed out above) that the AI cannot build or rebuild roads, and that's not a simple problem. So this would lead to some strange new exploits.

At this stage, with the fact that the average SR player is more sophisticated than the ones we were targetting two years ago, it would not be unreasonable to add road scrapping anyways, in a sort of "player beware" way, but it's not high on our list.

Higher up on our list is to release more modding tools, and in fact the concept of releasing the source code is not out of the question, however there are some technical issues, combined with the fact that the SR engine is a very complex thing and is not to be approached casually :)

- George.

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#21 Post by Anthropoid » Dec 31 2016

George Geczy wrote:Thanks for the discussion on this. As pointed out above, the fact that you can't stop paying for the maintenance on roads is a big reason why many players want to scrap them, but beyond the UI issues is the fact (also pointed out above) that the AI cannot build or rebuild roads, and that's not a simple problem. So this would lead to some strange new exploits.

At this stage, with the fact that the average SR player is more sophisticated than the ones we were targetting two years ago, it would not be unreasonable to add road scrapping anyways, in a sort of "player beware" way, but it's not high on our list.

Higher up on our list is to release more modding tools, and in fact the concept of releasing the source code is not out of the question, however there are some technical issues, combined with the fact that the SR engine is a very complex thing and is not to be approached casually :)

- George.
Also +1 on the prospect of tearing up roads . . . however in George's support . . .

An analogy I've come to realize is apt, based on my own experiences wading into some 21 year old legacy C code for a game I'm an apprentice developer on:

Younger engineer looks at older engineer while pointing at an incomprehensible tangle of pipes, ducts, wires, circuit boards, toggles and parts (a 1/100,000th portion of a much larger mechanism) and asks "What the hell does that do?"

Older engineer who has been working on these types of machines for 35 years says, "I have no idea. But it works. So, lets try not to break it in the process of 'improving' it."

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#22 Post by way2co0l » Dec 31 2016

Anthropoid wrote:
George Geczy wrote:Thanks for the discussion on this. As pointed out above, the fact that you can't stop paying for the maintenance on roads is a big reason why many players want to scrap them, but beyond the UI issues is the fact (also pointed out above) that the AI cannot build or rebuild roads, and that's not a simple problem. So this would lead to some strange new exploits.

At this stage, with the fact that the average SR player is more sophisticated than the ones we were targetting two years ago, it would not be unreasonable to add road scrapping anyways, in a sort of "player beware" way, but it's not high on our list.

Higher up on our list is to release more modding tools, and in fact the concept of releasing the source code is not out of the question, however there are some technical issues, combined with the fact that the SR engine is a very complex thing and is not to be approached casually :)

- George.
Also +1 on the prospect of tearing up roads . . . however in George's support . . .

An analogy I've come to realize is apt, based on my own experiences wading into some 21 year old legacy C code for a game I'm an apprentice developer on:

Younger engineer looks at older engineer while pointing at an incomprehensible tangle of pipes, ducts, wires, circuit boards, toggles and parts (a 1/100,000th portion of a much larger mechanism) and asks "What the hell does that do?"

Older engineer who has been working on these types of machines for 35 years says, "I have no idea. But it works. So, lets try not to break it in the process of 'improving' it."
But what could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#23 Post by mrgenie » Jan 01 2017

way2co0l wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
George Geczy wrote:Thanks for the discussion on this. As pointed out above, the fact that you can't stop paying for the maintenance on roads is a big reason why many players want to scrap them, but beyond the UI issues is the fact (also pointed out above) that the AI cannot build or rebuild roads, and that's not a simple problem. So this would lead to some strange new exploits.

At this stage, with the fact that the average SR player is more sophisticated than the ones we were targetting two years ago, it would not be unreasonable to add road scrapping anyways, in a sort of "player beware" way, but it's not high on our list.

Higher up on our list is to release more modding tools, and in fact the concept of releasing the source code is not out of the question, however there are some technical issues, combined with the fact that the SR engine is a very complex thing and is not to be approached casually :)

- George.
Also +1 on the prospect of tearing up roads . . . however in George's support . . .

An analogy I've come to realize is apt, based on my own experiences wading into some 21 year old legacy C code for a game I'm an apprentice developer on:

Younger engineer looks at older engineer while pointing at an incomprehensible tangle of pipes, ducts, wires, circuit boards, toggles and parts (a 1/100,000th portion of a much larger mechanism) and asks "What the hell does that do?"

Older engineer who has been working on these types of machines for 35 years says, "I have no idea. But it works. So, lets try not to break it in the process of 'improving' it."
But what could possibly go wrong?
If you use git, sub versioning, not much as you can always revert step by step to analyze changes. Just need a lot of time to research the code.

And if you work on parts that haven't been developed activily by BG nothing will go wrong in the first place.

Tactics, combat etc in SR is so sophisticated.
Modders don't really need to touch this part of the code.

I personally would mod in more resources, industrial change production
I.e. You need a silicon ore for chips, but a chip factory to produce them,
So a chip factory must be build by a player before you can use chips for advanced weapons.

People satisfactory based on luxury,
So you need bananas, cars, phones, etc

Crop fields, plantations, etc

Being more nation building to the game

That's more civ stuff I know, but that's the only thing I miss in SR

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#24 Post by Kristijonas » Jan 06 2017

mrgenie wrote: I personally would mod in more resources, industrial change production
I.e. You need a silicon ore for chips, but a chip factory to produce them,
So a chip factory must be build by a player before you can use chips for advanced weapons.

People satisfactory based on luxury,
So you need bananas, cars, phones, etc

Crop fields, plantations, etc

Being more nation building to the game

That's more civ stuff I know, but that's the only thing I miss in SR
I would LOVE to see that! Unfortunately SR:U was reduced in this way as well with rubber changing water as a resource. There could have been very nice scenarios of water wars, scenarios with goals of saving a country from draught etc. Instead we get rubber as a resource in year 2020 O_O

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#25 Post by czert » Mar 08 2018

wellč we needbooth things, removing of existing roads/rr for human optimilization of supply routes.
better ai building new roads/rr to fix out of supply problems ( best demontrated by china vs tibet problem, china will atack but capture on city and thats alllč china cant advance because lack of supply there for units - no roads there
techs to reduce insane amount of upkeep of roads, so ai is more likely to build them if know how and player is not cripleb by tripling rail network to keep things moving and new resource fields supplied.
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#26 Post by sparky282 » Mar 16 2018

New roads being built is being looked into by the team I believe

as for being able to delete roads etc it will never come and I for one am not particularly upset about that

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#27 Post by SixthtySixthSix » Mar 16 2018

George Geczy wrote:
Sep 05 2016
Thanks for the discussion on this. As pointed out above, the fact that you can't stop paying for the maintenance on roads is a big reason why many players want to scrap them, but beyond the UI issues is the fact (also pointed out above) that the AI cannot build or rebuild roads, and that's not a simple problem. So this would lead to some strange new exploits.

At this stage, with the fact that the average SR player is more sophisticated than the ones we were targetting two years ago, it would not be unreasonable to add road scrapping anyways, in a sort of "player beware" way, but it's not high on our list.

Higher up on our list is to release more modding tools, and in fact the concept of releasing the source code is not out of the question, however there are some technical issues, combined with the fact that the SR engine is a very complex thing and is not to be approached casually :)

- George.
Leafgreen wrote:
Aug 15 2016
A big +1. We used to be able to do it in... 2010?



Far as realism, it's as realistic as somebody selling Japan electricity commodity. And perhaps my nation is so progressive that we rip up the old roads and recycle the materials/rails when making new ones. :-)
[engage devil horns]
:D
computer generation of roads/rails is not programatically complex- if there is not a rail to the next nearest and inferiorly supplied industrial point, put the prospect in a list, measure the projected worth/value of the prospects and sort the list, and then build the most valuable one. roads would target towns and military bases. and an additional layer of exception to the standing procedure would make the game fancy...

this is my pet peeve regarding all supreme rulers after sr2010... bring back rail and road scrapping. i love redoing the transport and rail systems as per optimization. :roll: that and the old forums are gone.

Edit: ...and bring back water. Water is great. :evil:
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#28 Post by Leafgreen » Jun 27 2018

+1, because the more that are wanting a certain change, the more likely it will happen.
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#29 Post by evildari » Jun 29 2018

if you need rail & road deletion that bad - then (beware ad) try out my little UI-mod (works with old saves too) and even with todays (29.06.2018) game version.
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=28340
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)

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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

#30 Post by SteamSupreme » Jun 29 2018

I was playing SR2020 using incorporating RUGE's map ferry and tunnel fixes where he added : ferries and tunnels to the map, this most noticeable in Brazil where one of the cities has no bridge across a lengthy barrier river and the AI cannot get from one part of the country to the other.

(viewforum.php?f=48&sid=35bedc1783db31574af32fd302657035)
x3x5x0CASH.zip

Found the AI plays a lot better game in being able to move around. Brazil was able to get at its neighbors and I gather the converse would be true if they developed the advantage.

The solution to Infantry getting to one continent to another was the Merchant Marine.

A solution to wanting to destroy bridges and roads might be an "auto regeneration" of said blown bridge /road after a certain number of turns.

Else the AI just is not able to traverse

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