Road/Railroad Deletion

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mrgenie
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Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

For strategical reasons, I sometimes tare down bridges.

but then I have a road there for nothing.

not a high priority. But would love to be able to "delete" such to make it optical more attractive.

Of course this is unimportant to the game.. but still.. looks better IMHO
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George Geczy
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by George Geczy »

mrgenie wrote:For strategical reasons, I sometimes tare down bridges.

but then I have a road there for nothing.

not a high priority. But would love to be able to "delete" such to make it optical more attractive.

Of course this is unimportant to the game.. but still.. looks better IMHO
We've had discussions about road and rail "scrapping". One factor is that it is actually very hard to realistically "destroy" a road in real life - once it's been built, you can always blow holes into it, but those are very easy to repair. Even railways, you can tear up the tracks, but the hard work of laying the railbed and grading the terrain has been done, and it's actually rather quick to replace rails. So once road/rails are build they become a permanent feature.

A better argument could be made for "changing your mind" (cancelling a road/rail build partway through), but for reasons of simplified gameplay we don't allow that either.
dax1
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by dax1 »

and what do u think about damage roads and rails with bombardments to penalize supplies?
Con forza ed ardimento
mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

George Geczy wrote:
mrgenie wrote:One factor is that it is actually very hard to realistically "destroy" a road in real life - once it's been built, you can always blow holes into it, but those are very easy to repair. Even railways, you can tear up the tracks, but the hard work of laying the railbed and grading the terrain has been done, and it's actually rather quick to replace rails. So once road/rails are build they become a permanent feature.
Oh you should tell that here to the companies in the Netherlands and Germany.

As a matter of fact. They build complete new roads for "supplies" to industrial areas or build highways and once done, they dismantle the construction roads.
construction road here in north-west europe means it's higher quality then a highway in most countries on the planet!

They really don't have a problem dismantling the grind bed and all. Actually, in NL they have automated industries to reuse 99% of it again.

You pave the way. After wards in the same trucks the resources were delivered it's going back to industrial seperators that seperate grind, asphalt, etc and reuse it somewhere else.

So no I'm sure where you got that from:"roads are eternal"

look at this:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.05968 ... a=!3m1!1e3

see the big hole there? It's close where we live. There was a A44 Autobahn there. But they had to dig the charcoal and thus removed all infrastructure including villages, streets and thus highways
now they are moving west with the hole, at the east, the A44 is reestablished and now the A61 + local roads, national roads and all the villages will be removed up to Erkelenz.

They really don't have a problem with removing infrastructure in Europe

as for Railways. In NL they tared down so many where I come from, I don't know where to start listing the connections they have removed over the years.

generally. Because Nature in europe is very rare, if something isn't needed anymore, indeed they dismantle it 100% to give it back to nature.

Now with 3 Million Muslems entered Europe in 2015, another 4 Million will enter in 2016, in 2017 due to family who comes they expect 6 Million, and more and more spreading over europe. Nature will become even more an issue
and thus dismantling whatever is not needed anymore even a higher priority.

Anyway, removing thus isn't a problem and does happen in real life. I know it also happened already in the 30's because my granddad told me what used to be where before industry was closed after the automation and
mass production of the 1900 - 1950 area.

Make it very costly to remove it (that's realistic) but don't say:"it's not doable and doesn't happen in real life)

Maybe in big countries like the USA or Australia it's not important to leave a road. It's only 0,000000000001% of your nature.

In europe it's like 50% of our nature.
so it is happening. it is realistic. it is expensive. but some countries, or continents like europe, simply don't have a choice.
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George Geczy
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by George Geczy »

so it is happening. it is realistic. it is expensive. but some countries, or continents like europe, simply don't have a choice.
Well, I did say "very hard", not "impossible", and I do recognize that it is technically "possible". However not only is it very expensive over considerable distances, even then it becomes (usually) much easier and quicker to rebuild the road than it was the first time. Of course that's not true in cases where a major hole (mine or other feature) was created, but usually the hard word of grading, blasting, tunnelling, levelling, etc will remain and roads/rails can easily be returned. Simulating that is very difficult so the decision was to make them permanent in the game.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by Zuikaku »

There are also situations where we need to remove some (redundant) roads/railroads to save money. So some option to remove them woul'd be really handy.
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

Once again George.

My son likes micromanagement and his fun in this game is not only the tactical but he likes in times of peace to micro-manage his country and rebuild things
as he sees fit (unrealistic or not)
I like micro-management as well, but in SR it's a heavy task to rebuild your country.

For that, he usually deletes a lot of stuff and builds it somewhere else.
Deleting (not only roads/railroads) is manually a really tough job!

In the lower left panel, there's the option to select any building and "Scrap a facility" only you don't know which will be scapped. So not good for micro-management.

To combine my wish about Roads/RR reorganizing, which is not only my request, but also reorganize industries, production (as a matter of fact, there is a historical precedent to this
anyway: USSR! When Stalin understood war is inevitable, his plan was to scrap everything within 1500km from the borders with poland/finland/etc and move it back into siberia and he really
came a long way with that)

So such a functionality in SR would
1) have it's precedent in history and thus realistic
2) fullfill the dreams of people who like to micro-manage things.


So my new request: make a popup (like when hitting escape button or ctrl-shift-s)

There you have a list of items:
roads
railroads
cons micro
cons mid
consumer
ind micro
ind mid
industry
...
....
mine ore
oil - gas field
....
...
barracks
air base
naval base
...
..

and at the top simply:
Infrastructure (cover road/railroad)
Industrial (covering everything not militaristic)
military (covering all military buildings)

after selected what you want to scrap, you get a nice red circle
and you don't have to manually delete every single building by clicking several times per building,
but can delete everything on a single hex by simply clicking with the red circle on top of it.
a user might as well select everything to delete everything from that hex/plot


only 1 exception:'cities, villages, towns, where people live) everything else the user should be able to
scrap as did Stalin prior to the great fatherland war.
Kristijonas
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by Kristijonas »

George Geczy wrote:
mrgenie wrote:For strategical reasons, I sometimes tare down bridges.

but then I have a road there for nothing.

not a high priority. But would love to be able to "delete" such to make it optical more attractive.

Of course this is unimportant to the game.. but still.. looks better IMHO
We've had discussions about road and rail "scrapping". One factor is that it is actually very hard to realistically "destroy" a road in real life - once it's been built, you can always blow holes into it, but those are very easy to repair. Even railways, you can tear up the tracks, but the hard work of laying the railbed and grading the terrain has been done, and it's actually rather quick to replace rails. So once road/rails are build they become a permanent feature.

A better argument could be made for "changing your mind" (cancelling a road/rail build partway through), but for reasons of simplified gameplay we don't allow that either.
The issue I have with this is that I am forced to pay for the maintenance of roads and railways. I like to optimize my economy to the minute details so having to pay, permanently, for roads and railways I do not need (and I have not even built myself, in the first place) is annoying and less realistic than "deleting" roads. In reality, governments do not pay for road/rail maintenance when they decide to abandon them?!
mattpilot
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mattpilot »

+1 on being able to remove roads

Sole reason being not wanting to pay upkeep on them and 'cleaning up' your country.

While RR are not that expensive, roads do eat a big part of the budget if you got a big country with lots of roads, but no real economy.
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sparky282
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by sparky282 »

I wouldn't mind being able to remove roads and RR


But really there are other issues that need fixing first in my eyes!

this is hardly game ending is it.
mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

sparky282 wrote:I wouldn't mind being able to remove roads and RR


But really there are other issues that need fixing first in my eyes!

this is hardly game ending is it.
Well yes. But the function to remove elements from the map already exists.
it's just about extending it.

I'm sure it's not that much programming work as the other improvements are.

i.e. the AI can take easily 10 years to conquer if supplies aren't good.
For example in my game, India has war with China for 12 years already. They simply send all their troops on the fastest way
to the capital of the other:'which is over the Himalaya' and over 2500 units of them are simply stuck in the himalaya.

Luxemburg could destroy both China and India right now because 99% of their armies are stuck.

I'm sure that's more important.

Or the transport merchants getting stuck on at least 4 regions on the map I know of.
I'm sure that's also more important.

But those fixes with take at least 20 times the amount of work as providing some more functionality to the user.
YoMomma
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by YoMomma »

mrgenie wrote:
sparky282 wrote:I wouldn't mind being able to remove roads and RR


But really there are other issues that need fixing first in my eyes!

this is hardly game ending is it.
Well yes. But the function to remove elements from the map already exists.
it's just about extending it.

I'm sure it's not that much programming work as the other improvements are.

i.e. the AI can take easily 10 years to conquer if supplies aren't good.
For example in my game, India has war with China for 12 years already. They simply send all their troops on the fastest way
to the capital of the other:'which is over the Himalaya' and over 2500 units of them are simply stuck in the himalaya.

Luxemburg could destroy both China and India right now because 99% of their armies are stuck.

I'm sure that's more important.

Or the transport merchants getting stuck on at least 4 regions on the map I know of.
I'm sure that's also more important.

But those fixes with take at least 20 times the amount of work as providing some more functionality to the user.
Seems like your not only asking to remove infrastructure but also AI to understand how to build infrastructure (so Chinese troops dont get stuck). Not a strange request, just takes alot of work i guess. Fixing Ukraine relations on the other hand is a 1 min. job. As should be auto repair facilities as it is working in SR2020. On the last one im willing to see what BG comes up with tho.

Dont get me wrong i also like to micromanage and be well supreme ruler, but pathfinding aint easy i think and well we should give George time for that. Last patch was pretty good i must say. Only BG has some idea what each project takes ofcourse.
Gameplay 1st
mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

YoMomma wrote:
mrgenie wrote:
sparky282 wrote:I wouldn't mind being able to remove roads and RR


But really there are other issues that need fixing first in my eyes!

this is hardly game ending is it.
Well yes. But the function to remove elements from the map already exists.
it's just about extending it.

I'm sure it's not that much programming work as the other improvements are.

i.e. the AI can take easily 10 years to conquer if supplies aren't good.
For example in my game, India has war with China for 12 years already. They simply send all their troops on the fastest way
to the capital of the other:'which is over the Himalaya' and over 2500 units of them are simply stuck in the himalaya.

Luxemburg could destroy both China and India right now because 99% of their armies are stuck.

I'm sure that's more important.

Or the transport merchants getting stuck on at least 4 regions on the map I know of.
I'm sure that's also more important.

But those fixes with take at least 20 times the amount of work as providing some more functionality to the user.
Seems like your not only asking to remove infrastructure but also AI to understand how to build infrastructure (so Chinese troops dont get stuck). Not a strange request, just takes alot of work i guess. Fixing Ukraine relations on the other hand is a 1 min. job. As should be auto repair facilities as it is working in SR2020. On the last one im willing to see what BG comes up with tho.

Dont get me wrong i also like to micromanage and be well supreme ruler, but pathfinding aint easy i think and well we should give George time for that. Last patch was pretty good i must say. Only BG has some idea what each project takes ofcourse.
No that's not what I meant :)

I don't ask the AI to handle this well. I pointed out that I'm aware to change and adept the AI to use it more properly will take alot more work.

All I'm asking, is the tools for the human player to "fix" things ..
As I know, by not automating but simply allowing human interaction with deleting roads/railroads is much more easier then programming AI functions to do things "properly"
mrgenie
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by mrgenie »

and btw, the AI in SR is already one of the best in the strategy/tactical gaming scene. If not THE BEST.

At least I don't know any game with a better AI.

But I'm sure, when it comes to strategy/tactical gaming -> it's impossible to ever finish the AI .
PleXD
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Re: Road/Railroad Deletion

Post by PleXD »

Before being able to Destroy Roads/Rails there needs to be a way for the AI to build new ones.
And in a game like this it alot harder then you might think
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