It's the Economy....

[George Geczy]

I wasn't sure whether to title this thread "It's the Economy, Stupid" or "It's the Stupid Economy". Either way...

One of the top priorities for the next update have been so-called "Economic Fixes". And after ready many threads and documents and forum posts and rants, the majority of issues all get back to the high facility and unit costs in later eras (especially 2020 eras).

Without a doubt, they are much higher than the balance in SR2020. Generally by a factor of 7 for high-GDP nations compared to SR2020.

But.......

The problem is that the balance of the SRU 2020 maps isn't impossible, although it is a lot harder than it used to be. The SRU maps have an economy that's much more difficult to balance and keep balance, much more difficult to grow, and a lot of that is directly attributable to the facility costs.

For the next update, which is expected to go onto beta on steam within a few days, the popular sentiment is being addressed and the facilities/unit costs will be reduced to SR2020 range for the "Normal" Economic Difficulty levels.

This is going to cause some significant balance changes, and here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

- This will make "facility farming" much more possible and exploitable by players.
- It should make over-production too easy for players to achieve, although we've added very low unemployment as a limiting factor that will raise the prices back up.
- I considered making this the setting for "Economic Difficulty Easy" level, but then most people probably wouldn't notice how to change it. In the end, decided to make this happen at "Normal", and go to the original settings once the Econ Difficulty is raised up.'

This of course does not resolve everyone's complaints about the economy, but does certainly strike at the "make it play more like SR2020" line of thought. Posting this here for some feedback before the next update is pushed out.

-- George.

[Cutlass]

I've been playing in the 1936 to 1944ish time periods, so I haven't seen the problems other players have been commenting on. I would simply note that one arguably really needs the various electrical grid improvement technologies. Also that trying to properly balance the economy can be an interesting and sometimes frustrating balancing act. However, in the games I have played I have kept the economic difficulty set at "normal" and that may have some bearing on it. A lot of the other players seem to prefer an "easy" economic setting.

My biggest problem continues to be something that Battlegoat can't fix. I have no air conditioning in my apartment, and the game's demands on the CPU are such that it ends up overheating after only about 20 minutes or so. No choice but to shut the game down, let the system cool down, and then start the game up again for another 20 minutes or so. This gets frustrating. But short of winning the lottery or starting a kick starter campaign to get money for a/c it looks like I'm left with limping along as best I can and waiting for winter.

[number47]

I've been playing in the 1936 to 1944ish time periods, so I haven't seen the problems other players have been commenting on. I would simply note that one arguably really needs the various electrical grid improvement technologies. Also that trying to properly balance the economy can be an interesting and sometimes frustrating balancing act. However, in the games I have played I have kept the economic difficulty set at "normal" and that may have some bearing on it. A lot of the other players seem to prefer an "easy" economic setting.

Well, you couldn't have seen the problem everybody is talking about when:

One of the top priorities for the next update have been so-called "Economic Fixes". And after ready many threads and documents and forum posts and rants, the majority of issues all get back to the high facility and unit costs in later eras (especially 2020 eras).

[amynase]

Very nice that you are going to try fixing the economy

I did a ten year test run of the 2020 scenario and one thing I noticed is that countries like China or India that are quickly industrializing in real life have a falling gdp ingame. Hope this will be fixed with the changes you announced there

[metsla99]

i have given a thought about a setting that could be added into the game (on the starting new game settings) that might help... or break... alot of things...
"globally equalized inflation" ... ie. inflation that is fixed to be same across all countries - either being a fixed rate through time, or fluctuating depending on global spending/earning/etc totals.... it may or may not be hard to implement, but it's surely a way to change things around...

not even sure it's a good idea but... just tossing it in.

[Kristijonas]

Is lowering facility costs going to be the only economical change? Sounds like a cheap workaround.

[Sawedoff]

I like it. The economy is always the worst part in managing long-term games. Eventually becomes unsustainable. Hope this works.

[number47]

Is lowering facility costs going to be the only economical change? Sounds like a cheap workaround.

This shouldn't be viewed as "workaround" but as a fix (return to a previous state) as the current situation was not intended. The 7 times more expensive facilities costs in modern maps are a by-product of 1936 economy model, not the intended model for modern time maps (2020).

[Zuikaku]

My region is just overrunned (it is1953), so I don't have to worry about that

[KirinFrost]

Make the ai,especially the usa know when to cut costs by reserving or scrapping old units.

The year is now 1970 and the Usa is over 400 billion in debt in my game -.-

[Aragos]

Is lowering facility costs going to be the only economical change? Sounds like a cheap workaround.

This shouldn't be viewed as "workaround" but as a fix (return to a previous state) as the current situation was not intended. The 7 times more expensive facilities costs in modern maps are a by-product of 1936 economy model, not the intended model for modern time maps (2020).

Exactly. I was hoping that the solution would be tied to techs (e.g., "Improved Factory Production I" sort of thing that reduces factory costs), but this will probably work as well.

[George Geczy]

Is lowering facility costs going to be the only economical change? Sounds like a cheap workaround.

This isn't the only economic change, but it is the most significant. We're also taking a look at some of the market pricing issues and helping regions to make more money off resources, and some minister AI adjustments.

But in looking at the forum discussions and suggestions, the facility costs are the most often requested change.

The year is now 1970 and the Usa is over 400 billion in debt in my game

That could never happen in the real world... oh, wait

But yes, if their core treasury is that much in debt, then the AI has not taken the correct actions, although in some cases very drastic actions are required. They AI often does scrap units and do other actions to reduce costs, but this can be tempered by world events (wars etc).

-- George.

[way2co0l]

I'm glad to hear the economy is the main focus for the next update, and I'm going to try to not be too negative with this before seeing the results myself, but I'm mostly sticking to optimism that the other economy tweaks you're referring to will resolve my biggest issue regarding the 2020 economy. It's been a long time since I've posted it, so my memory is hazy, but it really came down to market oversaturation and the fact that countries refused to adjust their own production to account for it.

Long story short, I found that countries would continue to not only produce, but produce for export despite the fact that it wasn't always profitable for them to do so. When I play the game, I look at the world market prices for resources, and then which ones are profitable to produce myself, and which ones aren't. The ones that aren't, I reduce my production and resort to importing. This ultimately accomplishes the same thing while saving me money which I can then put back into the economy through research, military spending ect to prevent the lack of production from creating any stagnancy. When resources start to get harder to come buy, the WM price goes up and eventually I start producing it myself again because it's too expensive to import.

The AI needs to do the same thing. Right now, it doesn't matter what the current WM price for oil is, they will continue producing for their own domestic use despite the fact it's cheaper to import, as well as produce more than a healthy export which continues to be a net drain on their economy while driving the WM price even lower which continues to magnify the problem. If they cut back on their production to demand, or even more ideally import, the world supply would drop as more and more of the larger economies import rather than export and the price would eventually rise until it was profitable for them to produce again.

Now, reducing the maintenance costs for facilities and your other tweaks may lesson this issue, but if it does, it currently sounds more like a bandaid to hide it rather than to fix it. The exploitability you mention is an obvious pitfall. I know it's easier for me to say something should be implemented than it is to actually implement it, but I've yet to hear an argument to how my proposed solution could lead to any negative effects. It's tougher for the player to oversaturate the market when other nations are reducing their own production, and nations that rely on export because their GDP is too low to benefit from the domestic sales also have lower production costs so can continue to profit from it. The player with their skyrocketing GDP and matching production costs are the ones that will need to curtail their production to avoid the resulting drain on their economy it causes.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be too negative, and it's entirely possible your changes might resolve the issue, but it worries me that your fix currently revolves around maintenance costs but doesn't mention anything about import/export/production thresholds. You asked for feedback, and that's my single biggest issue with this game and the only reason I haven't played in months. I look forward to playing again once your newest patch is released and just hope it actually resolves this issue. I really do appreciate the fact you guys are continuing to work on the game this long after release as it is, and have loved your products for a long time. My criticism comes from a place of love for the games you've given us over the years and a desire to see them as complete and enjoyable as possible. Thank you guys.

[GIJoe597]

Long story short, I found that countries would continue to not only produce, but produce for export despite the fact that it wasn't always profitable for them to do so. When I play the game, I look at the world market prices for resources, and then which ones are profitable to produce myself, and which ones aren't. The ones that aren't, I reduce my production and resort to importing.

How much income do you lose from taxes not getting paid when you close your factories?

[way2co0l]

Long story short, I found that countries would continue to not only produce, but produce for export despite the fact that it wasn't always profitable for them to do so. When I play the game, I look at the world market prices for resources, and then which ones are profitable to produce myself, and which ones aren't. The ones that aren't, I reduce my production and resort to importing.

How much income do you lose from taxes not getting paid when you close your factories?

Honestly not that much. Typically I would be on the verge of running out of unemployed workers anyway and taking them out of certain resource production areas allowed me to increase research, military spending, and construction for other more profitable resources easier. Besides, any loss in taxes was made up for through better margins for trade and domestic sales. You might take some slight hit in taxes even after redirecting your workforce, but the margin for production vs domestic sales would be much healthier at the same time.

Really, the main reason to keep producing despite not making a profit would be to super heat your economy through massive GDP growth which I just don't think is necessary. The AI already achieves this through construction, research, and military spending so its economy would continue to grow. The problem is their economy gets weaker and weaker the further their exported products drop below their own production costs. When their production cost to produce oil or agriculture is twice that (or worse) of what the sale price is on the WM, they wind up losing a large amount of money through the simple margins of production vs sale, and that lost money could go into sustaining the militaries, research, and repair they often struggle with now.