Water vs. Rubber

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jimmyflow
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Water vs. Rubber

Post by jimmyflow »

Hello SR Players,

I've been playing SR games since 2020 first came out and have always enjoyed them and the subsequent forums/mods. I rarely post because answers, questions, and debates are regularly in the forums before I ever think of something. And its more useful to read (listen) than to speak. I haven't purchased any of the new games since 2020 until very recently when I began SR:U. So far, I've been pleasantly surprised and am enjoying reading the forums for information and playing the game for fun (as always!). I'm still searching for answers regarding the very incredible changes from 2020 to SR:U in terms of diplomacy, interface and general gameplay. Off the bat, it appears SR:U has taken ideas from some of the more frequent and popular modders (Ruges always comes to mind as far as modders).

However, I was a bit surprised to see rubber replace water and as I was perusing the forums, I was directed to Fistalis' personal link. In there, I saw someone had posted their opinion regarding why they thought rubber was a better idea than water. Its always interesting to see people's opinions and the flow of discussions (mature or otherwise). I just wanted to share my rebuttal and welcome any discussion/debate on the matter:


"Rubber is a consumer and industry good for many of the reasons you stated. It is a natural resource, although has to be processed into usable material. So based on that, its technically not a 'raw' resource. No one ever fights war over rubber and technology plays a significant role in its use and availability. For example, there's a company in Canada (can't remember name) that makes rubber used in Bridgestone tires and was apparently instrumental in the Allies winning WWII (little known fact). Rubber was so important from a consumer/industrial good standpoint that it was a critical supply piece in the Allies' push through Northern Africa. If anything, it was a strategic 'processed' resource. Currently, Thailand is one of the world's largest producers of the resource used in rubber - although synthetic is the predominant material used in tires and many other things we use day-to-day. In addition, competing markets in Russia, Singapore, and a few other places make inferior rubber to that of the company in Canada. Inferior to a degree, but significantly cheaper. Still, no one fights wars over rubber due to its current world availability and because its not thought of as a critical resource.

Water, on the other hand is actually in very limited supply. Clean or dirty, its not as common as you might think and is a very very strategic resource. You did mention wells and cleaning plants; however, neither have as significant impact (or have a different impact) than you might think. While it is true that water is an infrastructure piece – the same can be said about any of the other raw resources used in SR games. Think about the cause and effect (ex. Agriculture --> pollution, famine; oil --> war). Water is used for everything, including agriculture, hydro-power, hygiene, manufacturing, etc. (most importantly it is necessary for human survival). However, when water is scarce, the effects are severe (ex. California & Africa droughts…). More wars are fought over water than will ever be fought over rubber. If it were more common as you stated, than the Sahara desert would be green because nations would have the capability to efficiently desalinate salt water for use in the desert. As it stands, its too expensive and has unknown global environmental repercussions.

In my mind, water is a critical resource. While rubber is more the ‘underdog’ of resources. I see it more viable to include water as a resource to ‘fight over’ than rubber as rubber can simply be included as a consumer and/or industrial component. When I recently began SR:U, I was surprised to see rubber replace water. It made little since from a SR standpoint."


However, it does not detract from overall gameplay and I look forward to experiencing countless hours conquering from any standpoint that suits my fancy.

Thank you
-J
"I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all" -General Mattis
Fistalis
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Fistalis »

Personally I agree, and also have other reasons I dislike the inclusion of rubber. (primarily the changes it made to the entire economic system)
But TBH you missed this discussion by about 2 releases. (It was first discussed and implemented in SR1936) BG disagreed with me and others then and it's not likely to change now. (It's worth noting that there is technically an "extra" resource slot and BG could have kept water and implemented rubber as well.. it wasn't really an either or debate.. or didn't have to be anyway) :wink:

The discussions on my board are targeted toward whether or not to re-implment water and remove rubber as part of my mods. Unfortunately since the last map file we had that had water as a resource on it was SRCW it would be a significant step backward for me to use that map for any future mods.
So outside of BG supplying an updated map with water or giving modders access/ability to modify the MAPX file its pretty much a dead discussion there as well. :-(
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Balthagor
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Balthagor »

I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, but I'm afraid that water will not be added to the game.

While there is an "undefined" resource, the code expects any resource after the 9th to be a finished good, which would preclude water. Also, adding a 12th resources would be a massive undertaking We did consider extensively what to do when we brought back a modern map and for a number of reasons, trying to support two different resources in the engine would have created some massive development barriers. The decision was made to use rubber across all eras. Massive changes were made to the maps to place rubber into the map. This was still less work than would have been required to support both. We would not have the resources to both undo the changes and create all the engine and UI elements required to support both rubber and water. Some feature decisions simply cannot be undone post release.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Ater »

Balthagor wrote:I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, but I'm afraid that water will not be added to the game.

While there is an "undefined" resource, the code expects any resource after the 9th to be a finished good, which would preclude water. Also, adding a 12th resources would be a massive undertaking We did consider extensively what to do when we brought back a modern map and for a number of reasons, trying to support two different resources in the engine would have created some massive development barriers. The decision was made to use rubber across all eras. Massive changes were made to the maps to place rubber into the map. This was still less work than would have been required to support both. We would not have the resources to both undo the changes and create all the engine and UI elements required to support both rubber and water. Some feature decisions simply cannot be undone post release.
I didn't read all of the post but, I never really understood what made rubber a good idea to add? It is one of the few things I hate about the game.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
jimmyflow
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by jimmyflow »

Fistalis wrote:Personally I agree, and also have other reasons I dislike the inclusion of rubber. (primarily the changes it made to the entire economic system)
But TBH you missed this discussion by about 2 releases. (It was first discussed and implemented in SR1936) BG disagreed with me and others then and it's not likely to change now. (It's worth noting that there is technically an "extra" resource slot and BG could have kept water and implemented rubber as well.. it wasn't really an either or debate.. or didn't have to be anyway) :wink:

The discussions on my board are targeted toward whether or not to re-implment water and remove rubber as part of my mods. Unfortunately since the last map file we had that had water as a resource on it was SRCW it would be a significant step backward for me to use that map for any future mods.
So outside of BG supplying an updated map with water or giving modders access/ability to modify the MAPX file its pretty much a dead discussion there as well. :-(

I understand I was a little late to the discussion but was interested in learning more about it and seeing what was behind the decision to switch from water to rubber.

Thanks!
-J
"I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all" -General Mattis
jimmyflow
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by jimmyflow »

Balthagor wrote:I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, but I'm afraid that water will not be added to the game.

While there is an "undefined" resource, the code expects any resource after the 9th to be a finished good, which would preclude water. Also, adding a 12th resources would be a massive undertaking We did consider extensively what to do when we brought back a modern map and for a number of reasons, trying to support two different resources in the engine would have created some massive development barriers. The decision was made to use rubber across all eras. Massive changes were made to the maps to place rubber into the map. This was still less work than would have been required to support both. We would not have the resources to both undo the changes and create all the engine and UI elements required to support both rubber and water. Some feature decisions simply cannot be undone post release.


What prompted the decision to make such a change? From what you're explaining, this was a significant and complex change and was easier to manage due to the game mechanics (correct me if I'm wrong). I can only imagine how the debate was... rock/paper/scissors or some sort of light saber duels...

Thanks for sating my curiosity.

-J
"I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all" -General Mattis
Aragos
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Aragos »

Well, given that the SRU engine is mostly based on the SR36 engine, rubber does make sense.

In 1936, Rubber was a rare and important resource--nearly as important as Oil. The invention of synthetic rubber and its industrialization changed that, of course.

In 1936, water wasn't an issue for any country. Today it is a different story.

But from a programming view, I see the point and how hard it would be to change everything at this point, for basically a couple of scenario maps.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by SentosKarum »

Rubber was a critical ressource in the era SR 1936 was set in, water... less so. Hence the switch.

That said I feel that the rubber-water switch mainly switched around which countries have a problem now. And it's not a huge issue to sate rubber demands, I feel, as for example with 1936 Germany the handful of artifical rubber plants get lost in the sea of synthetic oil plants.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Fistalis »

Ater wrote:
I didn't read all of the post but, I never really understood what made rubber a good idea to add? It is one of the few things I hate about the game.
As the people noted above it was a very important resource in the build up to WW2 and although synthetic rubber existed as early at 1879 it wasn't very good or very common until during WW2 when synthetic rubber production actually surpassed natural production.

Where it really runs into an issue is CW and modern day maps given that any nation state could easily produce its own synthetic today. This makes it pretty much useless other than to add more complexity and bottle necks to the economy on more modern maps.
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Kristijonas
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Kristijonas »

My opinion: Rubber is an industrial good. There are 20+ rare materials that could be instead of rubber. Adding rubber is definitely a failure. However,I have accepted the failure and do not see any point in complaining. I'm more concerned that there is no 'water' resource, because especially in 2020 it could play a really important role.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Balthagor »

jimmyflow wrote:What prompted the decision to make such a change?...
As suggested, it was the need for Rubber as a resource in the WWII era. When that project began, there was no intention of revisiting the modern era and therefore the engine was changed.

I honestly don't remember water having such a big impact on gameplay, but it has been a while since I played SR2020.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Ater »

Well since you guys kinda screwed up here, would it ever be possible to release a cheap water DLC?
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Zuikaku »

This is purely hypothethical question, but with enough resources and manpower - is SRU engine capable of implementing 50 resources (like gold, gemstones, water, boxite, rare earth, stone, silicon, titanium, copper etc.)?
That woul'd be interesting game!!
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Balthagor »

Ater wrote:Well since you guys kinda screwed up here, would it ever be possible to release a cheap water DLC?
I disagree that we screwed up, I still don't agree that it's that big of an issue and DLC would be even more work than making changes directly to the engine.
Zuikaku wrote:This is purely hypothethical question, but with enough resources and manpower - is SRU engine capable of implementing 50 resources (like gold, gemstones, water, boxite, rare earth, stone, silicon, titanium, copper etc.)?
That woul'd be interesting game!!
No idea, but not without a major rebuild.

I would pass on a contract offer for something like this and I find it unlikely the rest of the team would be interested by this either, sorry.
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Re: Water vs. Rubber

Post by Fistalis »

Balthagor wrote:
jimmyflow wrote:What prompted the decision to make such a change?...
I honestly don't remember water having such a big impact on gameplay, but it has been a while since I played SR2020.
It didn't what it did do was provide another cheap base resource for small countries and what it did NOT do was provide an additional bottleneck like rubber does. That's where the economy goes pear shaped IMO.. trying to produce your own rubber.

since most countries must use synthetic and the cost of that is determined by oil prices.. which is determined by supply/demand.. which goes crazy in long games due to the slow increase in civilian demand george put in back in CW.(he dialed it back when I complained about major issues in the MW mod but for long games it still throws a wrench in the whole thing)

But what do i know.. my steam playtime is less than 10 hours. :D
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