Since SRU now spans WW2 to infinity (and beyond), can we ...

[mattpilot]

... get some features related to changing loyalty?

It sadden's me knowing that all the land i just conquered is useless because of the loyalty penalty. In essence, we conquer for population, but have to rebuild all factories (and production facilities) in 'loyal' hexes to actually be efficient.

In SR1936 the 'excuse' was that the limited time span wouldn't see loyalty changes. But now that i can play 100 years, it's just silly....


May i propose:

-> Every year/month loyalty in a hex is increased in favor of whoever is controlling it by a certain amount (* PLEASE LET THIS BE MODIFIABLE!!!) - Whoever has 50%+ gets the loyalty flag.


If that isn't possible in the current engine (tracking loyalty % per hex), perhaps this is:

-> Every year/month every occupied hex has a % chance (* PLEASE LET THIS BE MODIFIABLE!!!) to flip to the controlling side. This could be affected by DAR and population density of hex. The higher the population, the more resistance. The higher the DAR, the more willing people are. This would in essence make rural areas flip earlier (resource hexes) than cities where nationalism might be higher. Realistic? probably



But seriously -> We need this.

[suaske666]

Never gonna happen. Too much work for the devs. Never buy a game without knowing what you're going to get. Especially early access games.

[Kristijonas]

I think these are both good suggestions from mattpilot. Although I don't even know if the developers even recognize loyalty as broken. For me personally, loyalty is a major game breaker.
So do the developers recognize there is a problem with loyalty? Is there a workaround being planned/worked on?
Please fix this or at least make loyalty penalty removable through modding. As it is now, it makes no sense.
IMHO, if I were the developer, I would put everything aside and hotfix this ****** loyalty even if it took a month. Just too many places where it makes no sense.

[GreenGoblin]

Don't you guys realize, if some SOBs invade you and annex your land, even in a hundred years you aren't going to like them. Just look at Israel/Palestine right now. Or look at the UK in Ireland, or Russia in Chechnya.

[Kristijonas]

While what you are saying is partially true, in many cases, loyalty changes completely. Even the examples you gave: Israel hasn't been where it is for a hundred years, only for ~60 years and already the core territories of Israel are VERY loyal to it. Northern Ireland is highly loyal to the UK. Chechnya is a separate issue because of how stupid Russia was by trying to assimilate the culture by killing them (which only aggravates people). Even so, Chechnya nowadays would receive less than 50% production penalty. Also, Chechnya is less than 100 years in Russia.

That being said, there are many places in the world where loyalty switches real quick. One example would be Konigsberg. It literally changed from full German to full Russian in a matter of a 1-10 years. Most of the time it is a gradual process though, although it depends highly on many factors, such as differences in culture, economics (look at how Scotland forsaken their independence for economic gains), assimilation policies, etc. There are cultures that remain disloyal for almost thousands of years, there are cultures than in some cases turn almost overnight. What I would like in this game is there to be either no penalties (because factory won't work worse because of its workers political views) OR realistic and dynamic penalties AND several loyalties per hex.

GreenGoblin, countries like Yugoslavia currently have no loyal hexes for themselves. Scotland is 50% penalized for the UK. etc etc.

[mattpilot]

Don't you guys realize, if some SOBs invade you and annex your land, even in a hundred years you aren't going to like them. Just look at Israel/Palestine right now. Or look at the UK in Ireland, or Russia in Chechnya.

As already pointed out by Kristijonas, that is not entirely true. It all depends on circumstances.

This is also why i suggested DAR play a part in the calculation. Add to this calculation whether or not the other region still exists, what its opinion is of you, etc.. . But IMO, this loyalty thing is a game breaker. It is a bigger issue than Selective Unit Trading and Land Trading (hey.. if you are trading land, loyalty needs to change too! ). It is a game breaker, because it literally makes me stop playing. I question what the hell the purpose is of conquering.


So... to conclude my rebuttal, *Don't you realise, this is a game?*

[Kristijonas]

Finally someone who shares the same view as I do. I cannot play because of this thing because it completely breaks immersion for me. I don't like expansive countries getting unfair penalties nor do I like getting these penalties myself, especially because I play small countries, like Lithuania, Bhutan, Switzerland, Singapore, etc. For example I want to write a Lithuania AAR in which I'd try to unite the baltic states. I can't do that with 50% penalty in Estonia, Latvia and even Memel...

[mattpilot]

Since i dont feel like making a new thread:


- WHy does the production minister, if left to his own devices, produce 100% of demand of Metal ore (despite production capacity being 10x!), when the cost of production is less than the market price?

whats the advantage I, as a player, apparently don't see ?

[IHateThinkingUpNames]

Militarily the game just isn't as fun for me anymore. In 2020 I had great fun conquering much of eastern Europe as Serbia, or the middle east as Israel. Now it's pretty much a waste of time because the 50% penalty is a huge limitation once your empire begins to grow. As Israel for example, it doesn't make sense to build your production buildings outside of original Israel - you eventually run out of room and end up throwing resources/efficiency away at 'unloyal' hexes.

At the very least, there should be an option to turn loyalty on or off.

[Extpan]

Loyalty should change. I understand if its too hard to code, thats a valid excuse, but historially empires expand all the time, the methods used vary greatly but ideals and religions such as communism and islam are specifically used to counter the loyalty problems that real empires encounter. I dont expect an entirely new system where you can choose religions and things like that (though that would be cool) because im guessing that would take forever to implement and obviously some of the most popular methods empires use are absolutely horrifying and have no place in a videogame (think nazi germany, rwanda, serbia) but I think it would be possible to simulate the loyalty changes the same way you can simulate nuclear weapon strikes on populated cities without actually showing the kind of horrific human suffering these things create in real life.

[Aragos]

Don't you guys realize, if some SOBs invade you and annex your land, even in a hundred years you aren't going to like them. Just look at Israel/Palestine right now. Or look at the UK in Ireland, or Russia in Chechnya.

As already pointed out by Kristijonas, that is not entirely true. It all depends on circumstances.

This is also why i suggested DAR play a part in the calculation. Add to this calculation whether or not the other region still exists, what its opinion is of you, etc.. . But IMO, this loyalty thing is a game breaker. It is a bigger issue than Selective Unit Trading and Land Trading (hey.. if you are trading land, loyalty needs to change too! ). It is a game breaker, because it literally makes me stop playing. I question what the hell the purpose is of conquering.


So... to conclude my rebuttal, *Don't you realise, this is a game?*

I think DAR would be the key point. Technically, the Allies occupied Germany at the end of WWII without a penalty to production; the same with Japan. In fact, the occupation of both set the stage for both becoming economic powerhouses by the 1960s.

Higher the approval, the more the production.

[mfisher12]

Militarily the game just isn't as fun for me anymore. In 2020 I had great fun conquering much of eastern Europe as Serbia, or the middle east as Israel. Now it's pretty much a waste of time because the 50% penalty is a huge limitation once your empire begins to grow. As Israel for example, it doesn't make sense to build your production buildings outside of original Israel - you eventually run out of room and end up throwing resources/efficiency away at 'unloyal' hexes.

At the very least, there should be an option to turn loyalty on or off.

If you look closely, not even all of the hexes inside Israel (I'm talking Global Crisis scenario) are 100% loyal.

I was building factories yesterday and saw that some of them were going very slowly, not keeping pace with the others. I looked at the land tab and saw that they were loyal to Palestine because they had been in the old West Bank territories pre-1967.

The reality is that Israel has rebuilt much of the West Bank territory with their own settlements since then, re-engineering the loyalties of those areas. By 2020 (the start date of the GC scenario), I have a hard time believing that the situation is still status quo ante.

[mattpilot]

I think DAR would be the key point. Technically, the Allies occupied Germany at the end of WWII without a penalty to production; the same with Japan. In fact, the occupation of both set the stage for both becoming economic powerhouses by the 1960s.

Higher the approval, the more the production.

Another very interesting solution. Replace the 50% default penalty with DAR. 1 to 1.


Common.... lets rally the SUT and the LT camp behind this and get them to patch it asap :-D

[Nitrous Oxide]

Goddamn, why can't we just core hexes à la EUIV?

[Kristijonas]

Goddamn, why can't we just core hexes à la EUIV?

My thoughts exactly. I especially like the dynamic core system of magnus mundi +christmas momod. There it all depends on a huge pile of factors. You can get a core in just a few years or it can hardly happen in a hundred depending on what you do. Also, multiple loyalties per hex would solve a lot of problems.