(renamed) Discussion on how relations change, propaganda, wars

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Viranto
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(renamed) Discussion on how relations change, propaganda, wars

Post by Viranto »

I'm not sure if this is a bug. But for me it looks like a bug. Something is wrong.

Problem:

The country that declares war immediately hates the whole world. - But it should be the opposite. The world should hate the warmonger.

I have made a few screenshots. In 2020 and everything default.

China like a lot of countries around them.

Image

But as soon as china declares war, it automatically hates the whole world. It only attacks Taiwan in this case but hates the whole world in only one day. (The same thing happend to every countrie in the game. If France attack Andorra. It automatically hate the whole world. Everyone who declare war hate directly the whole world. This makes no sense. They hate everyone, even countries where they have deals.

Image

But like you see, the world don't hate china. But i think it should be the opposite. When somebody declare war, some countries in the world should hate them. But not the warmonger. And this happend really to everyone in every scenario. (its only india here, but believe me, the most love still love china)

Image

Can somebody explain this? It make no sense when the attacker hate everyone instant. Maybe its a bug.
(I write this in discord, too. But i think this was the wrong place)

[Edit by moderator: your thread started some good discussions, I've renamed it.]
Last edited by Viranto on May 26 2020, edited 1 time in total.
SGTscuba
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by SGTscuba »

To be fair, I don't think I've seen this happen, but CB does go up against me. I'll double check it later.

Out of interest, whats your difficulty settings?
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Rosalis
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by Rosalis »

Your playing with third party relations off? Things kinda get the opposite then.
Viranto
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by Viranto »

Rosalis wrote: May 26 2020 Your playing with third party relations off? Things kinda get the opposite then.
No its on. Same for the Critical Opinion. But its not the Opinion about china. Its china opinon about the whole world after starting a war.
Viranto
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by Viranto »

SGTscuba wrote: May 26 2020 To be fair, I don't think I've seen this happen, but CB does go up against me. I'll double check it later.

Out of interest, whats your difficulty settings?
Everything on normal. Volatility on normal, too. Ai Stance Default.
Rosalis
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by Rosalis »

Can you load the save as China and see if the world still loves you?
Viranto
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by Viranto »

Rosalis wrote: May 26 2020 Can you load the save as China and see if the world still loves you?
Yes have load it. (But its not only a china problem. Its everyone who declars war. The country which declar war, hate directly everyone. The same thing happend for example to USA. When Usa attack cuba (and this happend very often), then the USA hate everyone in the world. USA don't hate directly every NATO member, is not directly dark red, but very dark orange and get red over some time)

me as china hate everyone or i understand something wrong and everyone hate china and not china everyone. But then this means everyone on the world hate a country which declare war? Some african shouldn't hate what happend far far away.
Maybe the red mean not the opinion from china about anyone. It's the opinion from anyone about china? Maybe i'm stupid. I think this is the case. This means i click on russia and i don't see the opinion from russia about the world. I see the opinion from the world about russia?

If i understand this simply wrong, then this thread can be deleted.

Image
evildari
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Re: [BUG] The attacker hate directly the whole world in 1 day. The world don't hate the attacker.

Post by evildari »

Tried it out (Sandbox 2020 - make america...), but this seems to me working as intended.
What you are seeing in the diplomatic relations filter is the diplomatic relation of other countries towards you, and not you towards them.
You can also check this while selecting another country, and hover with the mouse over its flag.
There you see a breakdown of the relations. its not a 1:1 relationship.
Another country may hate you, but "you" can still like them.
Also to mention there is a population relation, wich is also used to deny some treaties if its low, despite your diplomatic relation "good enough".
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by Balthagor »

@Viranto - are you sure you want the thread deleted? If you misunderstood this, someone else might as well. The clarifications offer some good information.
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Rosalis
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by Rosalis »

Playing with critical international opinion off, limit this effect. But then its kinda weird seeing Russia declare 6 wars and you still only have like 50% CB. The bug is regions dont act on it. The whole world should prepare and declare war on them with that bad relations. At minimum US agressively forming transit treaties next to them for planning an invasion and protecting whos left. After all thats why they have over 800 foreign bases and called world police. Just like so many superpowers went before US.
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by evildari »

i think similar as Rosalis:
there seems to be no algorithm to calculate smt like:
the enemy of my enemy is my temporary friend, and it looks like we could be a lots of friends to be able to take that wolf down.

and one by one they gone until the last remaining "super"power is alone vs the hungry hyperpower...
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Balthagor
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by Balthagor »

evildari wrote: May 26 2020 the enemy of my enemy is my temporary friend, and it looks like we could be a lots of friends to be able to take that wolf down.
That is a very subjective and obscure concept to get a game AI to manage. At what point is the enemy of my enemy too dangerous to be my friend? Maybe I should make peace with my enemy to join them against their enemy. What values do we measure to know that my enemy's enemy is a big enough threat to our mutual enemy to make it worth becoming friends?

And the first time this happens, someone will yell at us the the forum "why did A and B make an alliance, they hate each other! You're AI is stupid!"
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evildari
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by evildari »

and right now the ai-world "see" a warlord conquering countries one by one instead temporary allying together -> "You're AI is stupid!"
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Rosalis
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by Rosalis »

First off i think some of the effects are too great on the options that are more realistic. Alot of countries depend on them, so claiming that all investments were for nothing and history has no effect, thats prolly not gonna happen.

But ok lets say the whole world hate China after it declares war on Taiwan and thats all that happened, if Russia declare war on China it should get a boost in relations with everyone that hate China, if a (smaller) country delete treaties with China, it should get a boost. If a country embargo (not realy a feature for the AI altho you can do it by loading the region) China, it should get a boost. If a country give troops to Taiwan, i think you get it. It doesnt have to happen all day over night, but China better gonnna end that war real fast, or it gonna find the world on its doorsteps. After the war is finished, wether China is dead or Taiwan belong to China, relations might grow towards the influence values again, or even better modify the influence values with how much they participated. All very small, but noticable boosts.

This was the easy one, on proxy wars that gotta be much more complicated. Who is the agressor... I guess we can learn from middle east relations, but its prolly mostly the same, just gotta pick a side. Propaganda (channels) is also something that is kinda lacking. The ammount of influence Qatar has with Al Jazeera is just crazy, and now all rich countries started their own propaganda channel to influence the world in their own language. Even fake ones like i said in another topic.
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Balthagor
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Re: Can be deleted. No Bug, understand it wrong.

Post by Balthagor »

Propaganda is another of this things that's complicated to try and simulate. While agree that getting all the things you guys are suggestion would "improve realism" and likely "improve gameplay" as well, none of this is easy to model in a computer algorithm.
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