Merchant marines issue

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burock82
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#31 Post by burock82 » Jan 14 2016

Aragos wrote:
Balthagor wrote:
burock82 wrote:so it is not going to be fixed ?
That's not what I said. I said I don't know. I have no idea how many more copies we will continue to sell.
nick-bang wrote: Do we need do a Kickstarter project to get the ball rolling ... ?

I Didnt know that Battlegoat were financially under that much pressure... ?
Even setting up a kickstarter requires investment (more time than money, but still investment)

Most people can figure out what a studio needs to survive.

- Google up the annual salaries for a programmer + artist + lead designer + a junior designer. Add those up. Add ~ 10% for overhead.
- Look at the price the game is selling for
- Divide the costs of running the business by the price per copy of the game.

That's how many copies of the game, not on sale, a company needs to move just to break even. And consider that there is at least one year before release were there is nothing to sell, so no income. Salaries always represent the biggest cost to a studio.

It's not so much that we are under pressure, it is that we won't invest in lots of hours of work unless there is a reasonable belief we will get paid for the work. It is why many studios stop supporting games soon after release, they've used up their development budget based on what they know the game will make.

One of the choices BattleGoat made was to invest in the Hard Core Strategy segment of the market because we believe the game will continue to sell for many years because there is little else on the market like Supreme Ruler. That means we have "long tail" of revenue to keep going with support, but the tail still needs to be wide enough if we want fast paced development. The smaller the tail is, the longer it takes us to get updates.

And for me personally, I have to think about my future. I've been in the industry 14 years now with my name to multiple titles published worldwide. Maybe someday I'll want to run a studio? There are certainly some industry people I would love to collaborate with if the opportunity presented itself.

But we won't abandon the game, we are much to proud of the work we've put in to just drop it. Things like the localization open new markets for us and could lead to new investment making the tail both longer and wider. Revenues is one of the major reasons for so much content now being offered as Free2Play with in app purchases.

And that's video game industry 101 ;)
While I don't directly work for the game industry (though I have consulted on several A list games over the past few years), Balt is spot on here. This is one of the reasons that many development companies are going away from the traditional model (everybody works for a company and produces games) to a dispersed, independent contractor model (cheaper, less overhead, et al). And, like Balt says, developers and programmers have more than a little bit of "emotional buy-in"--more so than the players/customers in many ways. They take an idea, create something out of it, and hope people like it.

Is the game perfect? Of course not. Is it "broken"--no, but it does have some odd things to work around (MM issue--like I said a long time ago, I personally detest MM in general; ahistorical and leads to some seriously messed up pathing issues and slows the game engine, but I digress).

Balt hit the target spot on--it is all about $$, ultimately. You can only fix what you can afford.

Ok i understand that but please do not relate this BUG with money or budget! I am sure most of the players are not just players they have serious jobs or they are student in serious universities etc. I am working for one of the biggest wind turbine OEM in the world. What you say is like to say to our customer ; "we manufactured the blades faulty but in order to change them you need to buy more turbine" which will make customer angry and on next project they will not even call you to tender!

So in our case, we ,players, are the customers of game developers and there is a major issue , agreed and supported by community as well, and devs are just showing the money as excuse to not to fix it!

If i were a potential buyer, i would think twice after reading the forums about issues and bugs. Also personally , i hate to say that, it will make me to think twice to buy any game that any devs of this game involved. Becuase i will always remember as "They do good game but they do not fix the issues even the major ones"

This is my final post! I will not post anymore about it. But for one last time i bag you please fix this MM issue which is game breaker! It is affecting the quality of game!

Thanks and have a nice future jobs

Burak

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Zuikaku
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#32 Post by Zuikaku » Jan 14 2016

I do not intend to be as harsh but AI is doing some dumb things with MMs. And it's not only the cold war issue and USSR. In my latest WW2 game there are these (gamebreaking?) issues:

1. AI is routing MMs uncovered whle warsips are sitting idly
2. AI is not even trying to patrol corridors it sends MMs with warships
3. American AI sending unescorted MMs across globe in futile attempts to storm italian Ethiopia through heavily defended Djibuti and via Meditteranean and Suez which are swarming with Italian warships. Result: Carnage |O
4. UK AI heavily pounding coastal french cities with aircrafts and warships but instead of invading there they do what americans do - they send MMs via Meditteranean to invade Ethiopia with carnage as result. |O

On the bright side I have actually seen US carrier wiith airplanes launching airstrikes with Wildcats on French targets. Ofcourse, it was unescorted |O
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#33 Post by Balthagor » Jan 16 2016

And I would love to see ever one of these issues resolved. But I'm not going to take a day off my paid job that puts a roof over my family's head to go work for free to see that happen...

I will do what I can and make no promises.
Chris Latour
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provolone
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#34 Post by provolone » Jan 17 2016

I think all of the longtime players of this series appreciate the position you guys are in. This kind of serious strategy game has a narrow niche of hardcore, sometimes demanding players, and a wide scope in terms of gameplay.

Personally, I appreciate both views here. Yes, as a player some things can be frustrating. As a developer, I understand that you guys go out on a limb with no guarantees for profitability. For those of us who have dared to dream, sometimes there is not always light at the end of the tunnel. There is nothing else for it but to pick ourselves up and continue efforts elsewhere.

At the same time, I think there is room for synthesis of the two views. This series is unique, because no one else has dared to attempt a series like this. So while it may not be as profitable as BG might like, BG has every reason to be proud of their efforts. SR is something we just can't get elsewhere.

That said, my humble suggestion for the merchant marine and larger naval assault issues is as follows. Ships should avoid moving along coastal areas, especially when the region is aggressive or has transport treaties with an aggressive power. Instead ships should move along the center bounds of whichever sea and turn into port only when they are at a right angle to their destination.

Amphibious assaults suffer from the same issue. To keep a more powerful country out, all one has to do is deactivate sea ports. Entire swaths of coast can remain unprotected because the AI is unable to exploit it.

The AI has not been challenging, because it is too easy to beat when it needs to attack by sea. For this reason I have not continued with the series. Sure new content in the form of units is interesting, but the crux of the issue is: can the AI challenge me? Multiplayer is just not an option, due to connectivity issues here. I tried inviting some neighbors over, but they were too geographically illiterate to enjoy the game.

I still think that if these issues are resolved, the game has the potential to become more than niche title, but a long term classic. So much effort has already been put in to the series. I hate to see that forfeited because economics does not allow BG to go the final mile. Yes, we all need money to live. But if BG is to bring this title in line with some of the player expectations, I think we all have to recognize that it would be (and probably has already been) mostly a labor of love. Therefore, we should appreciate it as such. Even though we have paid for the game, we are still fortunate to have anything like this at all.

In closing, I'd just like to say again how much I appreciate the effort put into this series. The hours and hours of work truly shows, even if there are issues. So much of this is conceptual, as in the solutions BG has developed to model such a complex environment. I think if I were to tackle a project of this scope, I would not know where to begin. From this perspective, it is easy for users to criticize what is missing without appreciating the work which has already been put into the series.

Thanks again guys.

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Zuikaku
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#35 Post by Zuikaku » Jan 17 2016

Balthagor wrote:And I would love to see ever one of these issues resolved. But I'm not going to take a day off my paid job that puts a roof over my family's head to go work for free to see that happen...

I will do what I can and make no promises.
I can speak only for myself here, but I'm willing to pay you if that is the way you can push AI improvements. You are the commercial company and we understand your position. Nobody is asking you to work for free. And since SRU is my favourite title, I'm willing to support you if you are willing to support us! Maybe I'm not the only one :-)
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#36 Post by Nerei » Jan 18 2016

The question with crowdfunding is how much will it give vs. compared to how much it will cost to get that funding.

If you can get enough that the investment to create the campaign is negligible then sure it is a great idea. Just compared the 5% kickstarter takes (+3-5% handling fees) with Valves 30% cut. Yes crowdfunding is better than just buying a few more games if the cost to raise the campaign can be ignored. However unless you want to get anyone but the most loyal fans of the game to donate you really need a campaign that looks good. Unfortunately wages are pretty much always the greatest expense so a good campaign is not free by any means unless you get people to work for free.

Just setting up say a paypal account for donations is generally not going to raise much of anything if most experience with say donating to game modders can be used as reference.

Would I be willing to give a bit? Probably. I am not the richest person in the world but I have had fun with the game so far and I got it cheap on steam during sales. The fact that I like the game is also why I am willing to throw time at making 3D models for free.


With regards to AI improvements I admit it has been a few years since I last looked at it but I would expect it to be a fairly costly affair unless you focus specifically on a few things to improve. Making the AI in general capable of playing a sandbox game like a decent human is not in the realm of a 50-100K crowdfunding campaign. More like a few decades of work for world-class AI programmers with a few millions in yearly budget. Most games where the AI appears capable tends to present simple scenarios and cheat (pre-scripted) whenever possible. Combat in say 2012 Xcom is extremely simple compared to making the US play properly in say the cold war campaign in this game.

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#37 Post by provolone » Jan 19 2016

"work for free"

Nobody should work for free. We understand the frustration here, but that line is hyperbole. Everyone has bills and responsibilities they need to handle as priorities. Business requires an investment. A project like this requires a large investment of time. That is not 'working for free' but investing time with an expectation of future returns.

Entrepreneurship and business always requires an investment. If it were easy, everyone would be self employed multi-billionaires, best selling authors, or similar. The reality is that not everyone has the stomach to risk investing time/money, and many are not in a position to invest their time which is already stretched thin.

When a farmer sows his seeds, is he working for free? When an unknown author stays up nights working on a manuscript without an advance from the publisher, is he working for free? When a restauranteur spends months renovating a property, is he working for free?

With the AI, if BG can find the time to improve that a little bit, I think the game would go much farther. I don't think it is any where near as insurmountable as some posters have described. However, it will require an investment of time. So much effort has already been put into this series that not acting on this issue could potentially be construed as forfeiting the time already invested.

Regardless, I appreciate BG's position. I just take exception with that line "work for free". If I get 100 domains banned by google tomorrow, I'll have to take personal responsibility for that one. I won't call up Matt Cutts in Mountain View, CA to talk about how he made me "work for free". Likewise, if 500 liters of wine turns to vinegar on me, I'll be looking into sanitation procedures to see where things went wrong. I wont ask customers to drink it while saying: "I don't work for free".

Time to get motivated guys. You've already got the groundwork for a classic video game series. I'd love to see this project finished to a polish, no matter how long it takes. Don't let unappreciative people drag you down with their negativity.

nick-bang
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#38 Post by nick-bang » Feb 21 2016

provolone wrote:"work for free"

Nobody should work for free. We understand the frustration here, but that line is hyperbole. Everyone has bills and responsibilities they need to handle as priorities. Business requires an investment. A project like this requires a large investment of time. That is not 'working for free' but investing time with an expectation of future returns.

Entrepreneurship and business always requires an investment. If it were easy, everyone would be self employed multi-billionaires, best selling authors, or similar. The reality is that not everyone has the stomach to risk investing time/money, and many are not in a position to invest their time which is already stretched thin.

When a farmer sows his seeds, is he working for free? When an unknown author stays up nights working on a manuscript without an advance from the publisher, is he working for free? When a restauranteur spends months renovating a property, is he working for free?

With the AI, if BG can find the time to improve that a little bit, I think the game would go much farther. I don't think it is any where near as insurmountable as some posters have described. However, it will require an investment of time. So much effort has already been put into this series that not acting on this issue could potentially be construed as forfeiting the time already invested.

Regardless, I appreciate BG's position. I just take exception with that line "work for free". If I get 100 domains banned by google tomorrow, I'll have to take personal responsibility for that one. I won't call up Matt Cutts in Mountain View, CA to talk about how he made me "work for free". Likewise, if 500 liters of wine turns to vinegar on me, I'll be looking into sanitation procedures to see where things went wrong. I wont ask customers to drink it while saying: "I don't work for free".

Time to get motivated guys. You've already got the groundwork for a classic video game series. I'd love to see this project finished to a polish, no matter how long it takes. Don't let unappreciative people drag you down with their negativity.
I am afraid that your are missing the point:

This game is in its sunset. The studio can not make enough money selling a game that in one form or another have been in production since 1987...

To do what you suggest would mean reinventing the game. As BG have clearly stated then the current incarnation is Supreme ruler Ultimate, and hence the last.

It would seem that they are at an end with regards to their funds. Which is really sad as I personally believe this game still have lots of potential and in fact have not reached its full potential yet.
Which is why I suggested crowdfunding to get the ball rolling...

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Zuikaku
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Re: Merchant marines issue

#39 Post by Zuikaku » Jun 12 2016

While warships can not enter national waters of regions with no transit treaties, MMs seems to can do that. The result is slaughter.
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#40 Post by YoMomma » Jun 14 2016

Zuikaku wrote:While warships can not enter national waters of regions with no transit treaties, MMs seems to can do that. The result is slaughter.
Noo realy?? Never seen that before. :lol:
Gameplay 1st

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#41 Post by nick-bang » Aug 02 2016

Soooo... with the new update this is a thing of the past ?

Havent tested it myself yet

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#42 Post by selenaly » Aug 02 2016

Experience other games? pokemon go? it dominates the world of game with billion installations. [_]O

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#43 Post by nick-bang » Aug 03 2016

selenaly wrote:Experience other games? pokemon go? it dominates the world of game with billion installations. [_]O
Eh ... ?

Your point being ?

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#44 Post by YoMomma » Aug 06 2016

It's a little better with last patch, the naval path finding is better, regions honor the borders a little better, but on some areas regions are still loosing loads of man/units. Play Trump scenario, and check atlas after 6 months. Poor US soldiers all send on suicide missions by Hillary.

Also in suez and black sea the puppets dont work. Regions from all over the world camp the borders and kill loads of MM. I dont think they even have a treaty just unload in Egypt somehow.
Gameplay 1st

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Re: Merchant marines issue

#45 Post by nick-bang » Aug 07 2016

YoMomma wrote:It's a little better with last patch, the naval path finding is better, regions honor the borders a little better, but on some areas regions are still loosing loads of man/units. Play Trump scenario, and check atlas after 6 months. Poor US soldiers all send on suicide missions by Hillary.

Also in suez and black sea the puppets dont work. Regions from all over the world camp the borders and kill loads of MM. I dont think they even have a treaty just unload in Egypt somehow.
Hmmm ... tnx

To adress a few of the things you wrote:

" Poor US soldiers all send on suicide missions by Hillary."

I thought that was intentional and realistic as a reflection of Mrs. Clintons way of doing politics:

Remember the 2012 Benghazi attack ?

Or the suicide mission she claimed to have been on when landing under sniper fire in Kosovo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc


Too bad and annoying with the Suez and Black sea connections: I really want this game to work. I really really do ...

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