Map Errata - Yugoslavia

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number47
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Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by number47 »

You changed the Italy-Yugoslav border in 8.0.28 but it is still incorrect which I find "funny" since the in-game map was provided with damn hexes colored for transfer... |O

Again:

Concerning ticket 18207:

here is the screenshot of the hexes needed to be transferred to Italy:

Image

Please, notice three (3) groups of red dots, first huge consisting of 30-ish red dots, second consisting of 1 single dot (town ZADAR/ZARA) and the third consisting of 3 red dots (island Lastovo).

Also, here are some other corrections concerning Yugoslavia:
town KOPERR (x:901, y:178) should be renamed to CAPODISTRIA (Koper was used later when the town was part of Yugoslavia/Slovenia)
town PULA (x:904, y:182) should be renamed to POLA (Pula was used later when the town was part of Yugoslavia/Croatia)
town ZADAR (x:913, y:185) should be renamed to ZARA (Zadar was used later when the town was part of Yugoslavia/Croatia)
town NIKSI (x:936, y:193) should be renamed to NIKŠIĆ or NIKSIC if using only english letters (current name is obviously a typo)
town BOROVSKAYA SLOBODA (x:952, y:186) should be renamed to BOR (somehow you confused this Yugoslav/Serbian town with Russian one)


- Military fab KRALJEVICA (x:907, y:179) - this shipyard was founded in 1729 and was building ships for Austrian-Hungary navy in WWI and continued to build ships up until 2012 (it was damaged during bombing in 1941 but was rebuilt after the WWII). Therefore, It needs to have sea port and naval fab (currently in-game it only has a sea pier)
- Military fab SPLIT (x:923, y:189) should be moved to x:919, y:188 since the current in-game location is almost 100km of mark. Also. this shipyard was responsible for building some of the first Royal Yugoslav Navy military ships from 1931, therefore this hub should have sea port and naval fabrication (currently in-game it has only a sea pier).

Yugoslavia (Montenegro) is missing a vital military port (town with sea port, not sea pier since it was used as dry dock for repairs) BOKA KOTORSKA (x:934, y:195).
Last edited by number47 on May 23 2014, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Map Errata

Post by Legend »

Taking a look.

Task 19121
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Re: Map Errata

Post by Legend »

Take a look in the next update.
I've worked on these fixes.
Let me know if I messed it up, or haven't quite tweaked it well enough.

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Re: Map Errata

Post by number47 »

Legend wrote:Take a look in the next update.
I've worked on these fixes.
Let me know if I messed it up, or haven't quite tweaked it well enough.

- Daxon
A of 8.0.50 things are better but still not 100% :P

1. City FIUME (x:907, y:179) was Italian in 1936 (form 1924 till 1943). If you look closely, it was marked with red dot on the in-game map I provided. (although, I might be responsible for the confusion since one of the history maps I posted in other thread was from 1922 when FIUME was still not under Italy :oops: )
2. mil fab SPLIT should be moved to x:919 y:188 not x:921 y:188 (which is still better than before :D ). I'll try to find some map to support this.

Also both, shipyards KRALJEVICA and SPLIT are still missing nav fabs and sea ports.

The rest seems ok. :wink:
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Re: Map Errata

Post by number47 »

Any updates on this?
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Re: Map Errata

Post by number47 »

Legend, whats the status of this?
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Re: Map Errata

Post by Legend »

I'll take a look again. It's tasked up... been working on the tutorial & help systems.

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Re: Map Errata

Post by number47 »

Legend wrote:I'll take a look again. It's tasked up... been working on the tutorial & help systems.

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No, problem. Just wanted to make sure you've seen this.. :wink:
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Re: Map Errata

Post by number47 »

Legend wrote:I'll take a look again. It's tasked up... been working on the tutorial & help systems.

- Daxon
Will the changes make the release? It would be a shame that at least the map issues (worldwide, not just Yugoslavia) is not fixed for the release.. :wink:
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Re: Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by number47 »

Ok, I've been talking with Chris about Battlegoats decision to leave Kingdom of Yugoslavia without its historical shipbuilding capabilities and their resoning to do so was the fact there are no Yugoslav designs present in game till cca. 1950.

There were 4 "big" shipyards on the Eastern Adriatic present at the game start (in 1936 two were under Italian rule and 2 under Yugoslavian), with great history as some of them have been building ships/warships continuously for 300 years. I understand you can't represent them all in game but I find your reasoning wrong (among other things :D ) and here are some points why:

*(please, consult the links for more detailed info)
Shipyard Kraljevica (YUG)
- was founded by King Charles VI in 1729 and built wooden warships for the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Wood later gave way to metal and business peaked during World War One. World War Two bombing almost reduced it to rubble. Communist Yugoslavia rebuilt it after WWII and made sure it worked at full capacity for 50 years.

Shipyard Split (used hex name since names changed through history) (YUG)
Just few quotes from the linked page:
In the first year of operations, a newly established company conducted repairs to the 53 steamship, 2 sailing ships and 3 boats with a total of 35,751 tons. At the beginning of the 1932 the company started the expansion of business areas and raising the production facilities. Started the construction of two slipways of 60 and 80 m, and several workshops. The General Assembly of shareholders of the ''Yugoslav Society for the manufacture and repair of ships" decided to rename the company, so on 11th August 1932th, it became Shipyard ''Split'' A.D.
In the eve of the Second World War, accurately in July 30, 1936 in the shipyard ''Split'' started the new era that marked the beginning of modern shipbuilding in Split. That year first iron ship, on its own steam engine - tug ''Konjic'' was launched into the sea. With that event the construction of iron ships by modern technology began, and that is the moment in which the transition from handicraft to industrial shipbuilding started. On those basis, after World War II, the modern world famous shipbuilding industry ''Split'' - Brodosplit was built.
Under the French management, the higher technology, developed a modern shipbuilding and shipbuilding of steel ships was introduced in shipyard. They invested significantly, built two modern slipways, and profits began to emerge in 1938. They built ships for the Financial Guard, first one tug, then the destroyers "Ljubljana" and "Zagreb" for the navy of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and two large passenger ship "Sarajevo" and "Šumadija''.
Now, granted that there were no "Yugoslav military designs" built before 50s, they were building warships that French designed ("Ljubljana" and "Zagreb" destroyers were based on the earlier delievered "Beograd" destroyer that was build for the Royal Yugoslav Navy by French "Chantiers de la Loire" shipyard). Even the in-game design of a destroyer "Split" (unitID 17097) that is a French design was entirely built in this shipyard (the French designed it for the Yugoslav Royal Navy).


Shipyard Rijeka (ITA)
SMS Szent István built in Rijeka (Fiume) and launched in 1914
Image

Shipyard Pola (ITA)
was founded in 1856, in the carefully selected bay of Pula as a shipyard of the Austro-Hungarian navy.
on October 5th, 1858, the first ship - Kaiser - having a deadweight of 5,194 tonnes, was launched from the berth. The construction of 55 ships of various type for the Austro-Hungarian fleet having a total deadweight of 53,588 tonnes followed.
So, this is why I see your resoning "by absence of designs" as faulty, and hugely in disregard of the history of these shipyards. :P

Also, there is a missing Naval Port in city Pola (x:904, y:182)
Wikipedia wrote:In 1813, Pula (with Istria) was restored to the Austrian Empire. Under the compromise of 1867, the town — under the Italian name, Pola — remained in Austria-Hungary until the latter's defeat and dissolution in 1918. Under Austrian rule, Pola regained prosperity. Its large natural harbour became Austria's main naval base and a major shipbuilding centre. It was chosen for the base in 1859 by Hans Birch Dahlerup, a Danish admiral in the service of Austria.
After the collapse of Fascist Italy in 1943, the city was occupied by the German Army and remained a base for German U-boats.
Ok, Chris, George and other that are willing, can we start the discussion now? :D
Last edited by number47 on May 23 2014, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by Zuikaku »

I really don't see any reasons why these shipyards are excluded. so I fully support number47.

I also note that selective unit trade is still missing and it generaly weakens smaller regions like Yugoslavia.
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Re: Map Errata - "Fantasy" Yugoslavia

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

number47 wrote:Ok, I've been talking with Chris about Battlegoats decision to leave Kingdom of Yugoslavia without its historical shipbuilding capabilities and their resoning to do so was the fact there are no Yugoslav designs present in game till cca. 1950.

There were 4 "big" shipbyards on the Eastern Adriatic present at the game start (in 1936 two were under Italian rule and 2 under Yugoslavian), with great history as some of them have been building ships/warships continuously for 300 years. I understand you can't represent them all in game but I find your reasoning wrong (among other things :D ) and here are some points why:
Number 47 is ABSOLUTELY right about the Map, location of shipyards and earlier posts on Aircraft Fabrication facilities.

It follows the same problem several of posts regarding Germany, Japan, France, etc. to correct lacking Naval - Air - Ground Fabrication facilities by myself allude to. Since these suggested updates date from long ago and have yet to even make it into 8.0.100 update, and the above comment on Yugoslavia shipyards from Bathagor, nearly says it all.

Thus, BG continues the creation of a "Fantasy SR-1936".

If you are going to make all these non-historical design changes to the game....then why use the term "1936" and just call it
"Fantasy Supreme Ruler", for that is what it has become.

One would get the view BG no longer really wants HISTORICAL inputs to this game, for their programming minds are made up with their own fantasy game, irregardless to what your most loyal fans - those who post on the Forum, know the game inside-and-out, buy in the retail CD market or download from STEAM Valve - want [or what you are advertising by using "1936".

What is evident from Zuikaku, Number 47 and a host of others, is a historical game, not some fantasy game created to short-cut the amount of programming necessary to include the historical military facilities, order-of-battle, etc. etc.

While it is my critical view, it seems shared by others, who keep posting "changes" to make the game replicate what 1936 historically was - and what was TRW.

Therefore, BG....drop the year "1936" and go on designing what seems easiest for you to achieve. |O
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Re: Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by number47 »

I really wondered for some time, which part of "geminif4ucorsair"'s post to quote, but in the end I decided not to quote any of it since what I have to say applies to a general feeling of frustration that can be felt in his whole post. Chris's response was not as rigid as my writing probably made it seem. I apologize for that. After my remark that I find this reasoning weird his response was:
Balthagor wrote:Re: Fabs - I'm not saying we're right. Put the details into a post or an email and I'll involve George in the discussion. There are just so many areas to look at, sometimes we judge an area too quickly.
...hence my last post.

Why I'm I quoting this? (Chris, I honestly hope you don't mind me re-posting your private message :oops: ) Because, I don't think BG's "errors" are intentional (and his quoted response clearly supports my thinking), and they really are willing to correct anything they can (get the better info on). I can understand that a dev team consisting of a around 5-6 hard working people residing in Canada, supported by a hard working volunteer from the USA (yeas, I mean you g4c :wink: ) can't have all the facts from all around the world correct. It would be absurd to expect that. I, that live in the area before mentioned, had difficulties finding decent info in English, and I had benefit of knowing those cities, ports, shipyards, and what not, existed in that time frame. I can't imagine a person, from half around world finding this info without already knowing what to search for...

My point is, we shouldn't be hard on them. I mean we can, but that is not productive in any way. The very reason why we (at least I, but I know there are other on this forum) like them is their willingness to listen to the community and that comes from their passion to get things right. Sometimes they are maybe even to much obsessed with it and try to "eat more they can chew", but hey, I can't blame them as I would probably be like them in their shoes. :wink:

In short, I share g4c's frustration on inaccuracies but on the other hand I understand the difficulties BG's has to go through to achieve their goal. :D
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Re: Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by George Geczy »

number47 asked me to post comments in this thread on the current status of the Yugoslavia shipbuilding in the game... We've made the map errata identified earlier in this thread (owernship of Fiume, location of some facilities, etc). The main remaining question is the existence of Yugoslav shipbuilding.

This also relates to a larger question of the naval fabs in SR1936. One thing you can see by looking at any of the larger countries - US, Japan, Germany, etc - is that there certainly is not an on-map fab for every real-world facility that built ships. And there's a couple of reasons for this - first, since the in-game ship building times are much less than the real "laid-down to fully commissioned" times to build a warship, it would not work to put in all those fabs. To do so would mean significantly increasing the build times of ships, and while this is not necessarily a bad idea, it isn't the most player-friendly solution. Second, a lot of naval fabs spend time making lesser ships - merchant shipping, tugs, transports, etc. Most of these are not reflected in the game... now even military transports are "free" units that you have access to without building.

The Yugoslav shipyards did not, for the most part, build significant warships during WWII. Of the three Beograd-class destroyers, which were a French design, the first was build in France, and the other two were build in Yugoslavia under French management. The Yugoslav destroyer Dubrovnik was built by the UK. Even for the two smaller destroyers build in Yugoslavia, the armaments and fittings came from Czech and UK suppliers.

So adding a full naval fab to Yugoslavia would give them a naval build capability that was greatly in advance of their actual wartime capabilities and output, and allow them to build ships and quantities that they did not have the capability of building. There might be good history of shipbuilding here, but very little capability for building modern WWII vessels.

A human player would be able to add a port and naval fab to Yugoslavia in 200 days of construction, and that would in my opinion be equal to "upgrading" the Yugoslavia naval construction capability to be able to manufacture and outfit WWII naval vessels in the quantities that our game naval unit build-times would permit.

Putting a single naval shipyard into Split as the "sum total" of Yugoslav output could be done, but I still think it would result in much greater capability than the country had at the time.

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Re: Map Errata - Yugoslavia

Post by number47 »

George Geczy wrote:snip
-- George.
I disagree, but I don't want to argue on this matter any further.

One thing though, since the nav fabs are obviously out of the question, shouldn't those hexes (mentioned during discussion) at least merit a Sea Port instead of current Sea Pier? HUH
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