Garrison related bugs.

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Uriens
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Garrison related bugs.

#1 Post by Uriens » Aug 04 2018

Garrisons have 2 bugs that are in Ultimate for a long time now.

1. Garrisons ignore tech requirement when they deploy.
In modern scenarios you can see that in DEFAULT.UNIT files there are defined multiple instances of garrisons. Most of them have 2 requirements attached to them, time (year) requirement and tech requirement. However, both requirements are currently ignored and only strongest garrison units are deployed.
Btw, I do think that having increasingly better garrisons as the time and tech progresses is a great idea.

2. Garrisons undeploy at the 0:00 even when there are enemy units in the neighboring hexes, usually in the middle of the fight. Player has to either a) move units away and back to the hex to 'awake' garrisons or b) go straight for the city hex.
Problem with this is that you don't always want to go for the city hex, like in situations where you want to encircle the city or block off reinforcements from it. It's also an exploit because if you time it right, you can attack the city right before 0:00 and have other non-garrison units (like AA or artillery) wide open with no garrison support. So to sum it up, bug makes you babysit your units around cities when you direct them manually and you can easily and sometimes unintentionally exploit this to destroy strong city defenses.
Sure, having garrisons undeploy can happen to player, but AI has no idea how to exploit this and since AI moves its units around more it rarely has negative effect on player's defenses.
Easiest way to reproduce is to start a war against a region that has garrisons in the cities, send several groups of units 'NEXT' to the city and wait for 0:00 on the clock.

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Leafgreen
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#2 Post by Leafgreen » Aug 04 2018

Garrison Trooper - Sir! Our equipment is 30 years old and none of us have fired a weapon in 4 years, there was no money in the budget for ammo. We meet once a month to drink and swap stories about life 30 years ago - when our equipment was still being used. And we are supposed to fight modern tanks?

Garrison Commander - You idiot, are the tanks trying to come into the city?

Garrison Trooper - No sir, they are just sitting outside.

Garrison Commander - Our job is to sit IN the city and defend it from forces trying to take it until regular army units arrive. Only an idiot would start attacking tanks OUTside the city where we have no cover or defensive bonuses. And if they just want to sit there... get the wounded to a hospital and round up some civilians to help us replace our losses.

Garrisons are weak, free, last-ditch units. I don't see anything wrong with them entrenching again if nobody is actually coming to take the city.
"That's O'neill, with two l's"
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Uriens
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#3 Post by Uriens » Aug 04 2018

I don't think units standing next to each other qualify as nothing coming to take the city. They literary do that in the middle of the gunfight and those 'nobodies not coming to take the city' wipe out other units IN THE city those garrisons are suppose to protect.

way2co0l
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#4 Post by way2co0l » Aug 04 2018

Yeah, I feel like anything that triggers combat either in, or from, a hex containing garrisons, that they should be deployed and kept deployed as long as that condition is met.

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Leafgreen
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#5 Post by Leafgreen » Aug 04 2018

Remember that these are free units which pop out, they are not normal military. Additionally if you move to a tile next to a barracks, all the units inside will pop out and most of the seriously wounded will go back into reserve immediately after they clear the barracks - how is that any different? To me it's simply not being suicidal or wasting supplies.
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way2co0l
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#6 Post by way2co0l » Aug 04 2018

Well in one sense, yes, but in another sense, no. They have a build time before they can be used, just like units you build. They also require reserve manpower whether they're actively deployed or not. I don't think they have the kind of maintenance that a "normal" unit would have when not deployed, so in that sense they're free units but it's like calling up a local militia. But once called up, they're not all that different.

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Uriens
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#7 Post by Uriens » Aug 04 2018

Leafgreen wrote:
Aug 04 2018
Remember that these are free units which pop out, they are not normal military. Additionally if you move to a tile next to a barracks, all the units inside will pop out and most of the seriously wounded will go back into reserve immediately after they clear the barracks - how is that any different? To me it's simply not being suicidal or wasting supplies.
Actually, devs themselves mentioned that garrisons and the way they behave (undeploy) when not in combat, is the way to keep the engine from getting overloaded. They ARE representing normal units and in older games you could actually build and deploy them manually as well.
Also, the combat mechanic in game is that enemy units that are within range of each other are actually in combat and as long as there are enemy units in the hex, your units can't enter that hex. Let me repeat that, when you send your units to a hex that has enemy units, your units WONT ENTER that hex, they will stop next to it and engage said units. So saying that units that are right next to a city are not actually attacking that city is complete nonsense. That's the ONLY WAY to attack the city with the game mechanics. Weather you deploy units around city selectively or just select a bunch of then and then right click on the city should not matter on weather the garrisons get deployed or not. Enemy units are close to the city, within garrison's range, they are shooting at each other. They most definitely should not be able to go to the bar for a drink when the clock sounds 00:00.

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Leafgreen
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#8 Post by Leafgreen » Aug 06 2018

My units will enter a city hex that has enemy units in it about half the time and not just when it's enemy artillery defending. I thought that was what the close combat ratings were all about.
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Uriens
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#9 Post by Uriens » Aug 06 2018

Close combat ratings apply when unit engages enemy that is located in a hex that forces close combat (thick forest, cities, etc.). Those hexes can be seen by using shortcut 'V'. If you have units entering enemy occupied hex then you encountered bug and should report it.

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Leafgreen
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#10 Post by Leafgreen » Aug 08 2018

Uriens wrote:
Aug 04 2018
Garrisons have 2 bugs that are in Ultimate for a long time now.

1. Garrisons ignore tech requirement when they deploy.
In modern scenarios you can see that in DEFAULT.UNIT files there are defined multiple instances of garrisons. Most of them have 2 requirements attached to them, time (year) requirement and tech requirement. However, both requirements are currently ignored and only strongest garrison units are deployed.
Btw, I do think that having increasingly better garrisons as the time and tech progresses is a great idea.

2. Garrisons undeploy at the 0:00 even when there are enemy units in the neighboring hexes, usually in the middle of the fight. Player has to either a) move units away and back to the hex to 'awake' garrisons or b) go straight for the city hex.
Problem with this is that you don't always want to go for the city hex, like in situations where you want to encircle the city or block off reinforcements from it. It's also an exploit because if you time it right, you can attack the city right before 0:00 and have other non-garrison units (like AA or artillery) wide open with no garrison support. So to sum it up, bug makes you babysit your units around cities when you direct them manually and you can easily and sometimes unintentionally exploit this to destroy strong city defenses.
Sure, having garrisons undeploy can happen to player, but AI has no idea how to exploit this and since AI moves its units around more it rarely has negative effect on player's defenses.
Easiest way to reproduce is to start a war against a region that has garrisons in the cities, send several groups of units 'NEXT' to the city and wait for 0:00 on the clock.
While I do not personally agree with #2 being a problem, it's not my right to take away the OP's chance to post a bug report by sidetracking it. Please review the original post and give it the due consideration it requires. (And I hate when it happens to me!)

Thank you.
"That's O'neill, with two l's"
(Holds up 3 fingers)

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Uriens
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Re: Garrison related bugs.

#11 Post by Uriens » Aug 10 2018

It would seem that #2 IS fixed. I tried 2 games with latest patch and in both the garrisons are active while enemy units are close.
Only #1 remains with garrisons ignoring year and tech restrictions.

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