Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

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Zuikaku
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

Balthagor wrote:
Dec 11 2019
I'm not sure why it's not researchable, we'll have to investigate. Ticket 23919
From the memory - because Pantsyr S1 is prereq for S2-ADATS2 Pantsyr.

And the reason why Pantsyrs are available for X group is ?? Why not for V or Z group also then?
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
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milivoje02
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 11 2019
Balthagor wrote:
Dec 11 2019
I'm not sure why it's not researchable, we'll have to investigate. Ticket 23919
From the memory - because Pantsyr S1 is prereq for S2-ADATS2 Pantsyr.

And the reason why Pantsyrs are available for X group is ?? Why not for V or Z group also then?
Read read the correspondence,
and what do you have so much against group x countries that have been expelled from group t?
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 11 2019
Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 11 2019
Balthagor wrote:
Dec 11 2019
I'm not sure why it's not researchable, we'll have to investigate. Ticket 23919
From the memory - because Pantsyr S1 is prereq for S2-ADATS2 Pantsyr.

And the reason why Pantsyrs are available for X group is ?? Why not for V or Z group also then?
Read read the correspondence,
and what do you have so much against group x countries that have been expelled from group t?
Don't have anythinga against X region countries. I'm just saying that if you empower them with mass of units this region did not ever produce (or will never produce cause I'm almost 100% certain that neither Serbia nor Croatia, Slovenia or Bosnia are never ever going produce Pantsyr, heck they have never produced any sort of SAM whatsoever), than it is very unfair not to give the same or similar units to Oceania or Latin america region group.

There is one thing I'm strongly against. I'm against turning this game into fantasy strategy just because some players (being that patriotism or fanboyism) feel their country is too weak, so it is supposed to research and build handpicked assortment of other region's units (being that T, R or U region).
And to be honest, there is more chance for Vietnam (or Syria) to build something like Pantsyr than any of the regions from group X or T. But, ofcourse, you won't request the same units for V or Z region, won't you? :D
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
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milivoje02
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 12 2019
milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 11 2019
Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 11 2019


From the memory - because Pantsyr S1 is prereq for S2-ADATS2 Pantsyr.

And the reason why Pantsyrs are available for X group is ?? Why not for V or Z group also then?
Read read the correspondence,
and what do you have so much against group x countries that have been expelled from group t?
Don't have anythinga against X region countries. I'm just saying that if you empower them with mass of units this region did not ever produce (or will never produce cause I'm almost 100% certain that neither Serbia nor Croatia, Slovenia or Bosnia are never ever going produce Pantsyr, heck they have never produced any sort of SAM whatsoever), than it is very unfair not to give the same or similar units to Oceania or Latin america region group.

There is one thing I'm strongly against. I'm against turning this game into fantasy strategy just because some players (being that patriotism or fanboyism) feel their country is too weak, so it is supposed to research and build handpicked assortment of other region's units (being that T, R or U region).
And to be honest, there is more chance for Vietnam (or Syria) to build something like Pantsyr than any of the regions from group X or T. But, ofcourse, you won't request the same units for V or Z region, won't you? :D
I strongly disagree with you on anything.
SA-8 Gecko and t 72 tank are examples.
they were purchased from Usssr and from them developed domestic products of domestic military industry.
Here it is only about the countries of the former yogsolavia.
And why don't you mention mig 25 and 29 which were given as an opportunity for Arab countries to develop.
They have never even had aeronautical technologies that are faster than sound. And Yugoslavia Serbia now has those thnologies.Feel free to list those products of the Serbian military Industries,and there offer at arms fears, and read your comment again.
You have wandered off the topic of the chapter.
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

T-72 is in the game from start as M-84 for region X. You see, M-84 is not a fantasy unit, it actually exist and was produced.
SA-8 was not used by Yugoslavian air defence units and was certainly not produced.

Serbia and Yugoslavia never built supersonic aircraft either. J-22 broke the sound barrier while diving, so yes, we can say his engines were to weak but this is not fighter aircraft either.
Project NA was supposed to be supersonic but was never build. NA is in the game since: 1. It was developed by X region. 2. Was at the final stages of development (so it is not fictional unit).
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 12 2019
T-72 is in the game from start as M-84 for region X. You see, M-84 is not a fantasy unit, it actually exist and was produced.
SA-8 was not used by Yugoslavian air defence units and was certainly not produced.

Serbia and Yugoslavia never built supersonic aircraft either. J-22 broke the sound barrier while diving, so yes, we can say his engines were to weak but this is not fighter aircraft either.
Project NA was supposed to be supersonic but was never build. NA is in the game since: 1. It was developed by X region. 2. Was at the final stages of development (so it is not fictional unit).

Yugoslavia first purchased the T 72 and upgraded to M 84 with innovations on the fire system.
Further, 5,6 modernizations took place. The most recent is the M 84 ab1 of Serbian origin. similar to the T 90 tank defense and firing systems. R 60 arow,with the launcher is produced in the domestic industry of serbia with the launcher. Wisit Yugoinport site oficial diler od arms producet in Serbia. You have links in.this chapter.
In Zarkovo aeronautic institute are build T 88 tunels for testing models for speads of 2000 kmh and up. NA
is a product of the cooperation of the French and Yugoslav armies. and is now offered as a co-op for investment. j 22 is currently in the process of being modernized.
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

Most of these are proposals (trying to get foreign investments to continue development), without any actual research or pre-production phase. NA was far past proposal so it is in the game. Im not convinced X region shoul'd be able to build russian warplanes (MiG-23, MiG-29) just because you have aeronautical institute or wind tunnel. Not to say that neither X region state produced a single tank in the last 20+ years (mock ups and scales not included). As I have stated before, if X region is given all these units, there are region groups that deserve this even more.
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

So you do not have anything against x countries?
i don't agree with you on enything.
And mig 25 in Arap states? They have tehnologies for 3500 kmh and altitude of 32000 metars? Did they any plane devolop in history?
you don't comment on that?
Moma Stanojlovic institut in Belgrade 3 times work on reanimation of engine for mg 29 in Service in Serbia.
Serbia build and sell 150 Nora b52. 100 lazar 3. 100 milos and sell. So you pretty much do not inform in that field.
Last ear roket sistem Sumadija had ben test in Pakistan and Saut Arabiba on distance of 284 and 300 km.
The armed industry is profitable. see USA its cooperation on F 35 and Russia and its cooperation on su 57.
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 12 2019
So you do not have anything against x countries?
i don't agree with you on enything.
And mig 25 in Arap states? They have tehnologies for 3500 kmh and altitude of 32000 metars? Did they any plane devolop in history?
you don't comment on that?
Moma Stanojlovic institut in Belgrade 3 times work on reanimation of engine for mg 29 in Service in Serbia.
Serbia build and sell 150 Nora b52. 100 lazar 3. 100 milos and sell. So you pretty much do not inform in that field.
Last ear roket sistem Sumadija had ben test in Pakistan and Saut Arabiba on distance of 284 and 300 km.
The armed industry is profitable. see USA its cooperation on F 35 and Russia and its cooperation on su 57.
I have removed all of the MiGs from region Z long time ago. So, that is my answer. Planes domestically developed by region X are in the game for years. the problem is that some players feel that this is not enough since their region can not build everything they need.

seems like you are confused. Repairing and servicing aircraft engines is not the same thing as constructing and producing aircrafts (and aircraft engines). As a matter of fact, X region never developed single jet aircraft engine. They licence built RR engines (Viper).

Cooperation on some parts is also not the same as producing the aircraft.

Let me se if I can follow your ratio:
Serbia (barely) manages to have few MiG-29s serviceable so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Croatia (barely) manages to have few MiG-21s serviceable so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Yugoslavia once negotiated about serviceing iraqi MiG-23s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Yugoslavia bought some SA-6 so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia have aeronautic institute so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build any (russian) plane.
Croatia acquired some Kiowas so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia got some Mi-8 choppers so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia was negotiating about producing some components for POLISH PT-91 tank so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them (the whole tank!).
Croatia got few PzH2000s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia (maybe) acquired a handful of Pantsyr S1s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.


BUT:
Syria operates/operated a magnitude more MiG-21s, MiG-23 and MiG-29 than all of the X region countries but they (Z region) should not be able to research and build them.
Syria operates a vast number of SAMs (Pantsyr S1 included), many more than all X region countries combined ever, it also have more rocket/aeronautics research centers and experience than any and all X region countries but they (Z region) should not be able to research and build them.

Germany produced some parts for Abrams tank so so the G group shoul'd be able to research and build them?
US produced many parts for swedish Gripen so the U group shoul'd be able to research and build them?
Vietnam also operates Su-27 and Su-30s. Shoul'd it be able to build them?
What about Venezuela? Shoul'd them be able to build F-16s and Su-30s?
If not, why shoul'd be X region?

My position is clear: it is well known who is the producer of specific equipment and who is licenced producer. In the game you can licence-produce almost anything you want (due to oversimplistic AI diplomacy) for bargain price.
If something is american design or russian design, only them shoul'd be able to build them. Licence producers also but not as the unit database entry. So I'm against X region being able to produce MiG-23s or Pantsyrs, but I'm also against region Z or V being able to produce them (as the unit database entry).

Now, you have pushed your wishes and made X region full of designs that do not belong there on any basics. The other regions (that are more advanced users of before mentioned equipment) are now neglected. If BGs now enforce equal standards for all regions, the game and unit database woul'd become utter mess with anyone being able to build almost everything (South America is one region so they shoul'd all be able to build very interesting mix of US, Russian and european weapons - and what about merry Z region). Why then having regions at all if all of the units will ,de facto, be "world units"?
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
arakan94
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by arakan94 »

IMHO the minor countries should get good fantasy units to research and produce even if they don't have the capability IRL. My reasoning is that player can actually make them big and wealthy. And when that happens, there is nothing stopping them from actually making advanced weaponry (provided they invest in prerequisite techs). This could be improved to make potential X region (and others) superpowers more viable.

That said, they really shouldn't get ability to research and make IRL units. Only when some specific nation built some foreign unit (such as Czechoslovakia and Mig-21), they should have the variant available.
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

Zuikaku wrote:
Dec 12 2019
milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 12 2019
So you do not have anything against x countries?
i don't agree with you on enything.
And mig 25 in Arap states? They have tehnologies for 3500 kmh and altitude of 32000 metars? Did they any plane devolop in history?
you don't comment on that?
Moma Stanojlovic institut in Belgrade 3 times work on reanimation of engine for mg 29 in Service in Serbia.
Serbia build and sell 150 Nora b52. 100 lazar 3. 100 milos and sell. So you pretty much do not inform in that field.
Last ear roket sistem Sumadija had ben test in Pakistan and Saut Arabiba on distance of 284 and 300 km.
The armed industry is profitable. see USA its cooperation on F 35 and Russia and its cooperation on su 57.
I have removed all of the MiGs from region Z long time ago. So, that is my answer. Planes domestically developed by region X are in the game for years. the problem is that some players feel that this is not enough since their region can not build everything they need.

seems like you are confused. Repairing and servicing aircraft engines is not the same thing as constructing and producing aircrafts (and aircraft engines). As a matter of fact, X region never developed single jet aircraft engine. They licence built RR engines (Viper).

Cooperation on some parts is also not the same as producing the aircraft.

Let me se if I can follow your ratio:
Serbia (barely) manages to have few MiG-29s serviceable so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Croatia (barely) manages to have few MiG-21s serviceable so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Yugoslavia once negotiated about serviceing iraqi MiG-23s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Yugoslavia bought some SA-6 so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia have aeronautic institute so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build any (russian) plane.
Croatia acquired some Kiowas so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia got some Mi-8 choppers so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia was negotiating about producing some components for POLISH PT-91 tank so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them (the whole tank!).
Croatia got few PzH2000s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.
Serbia (maybe) acquired a handful of Pantsyr S1s so the X group shoul'd be able to research and build them.


BUT:
Syria operates/operated a magnitude more MiG-21s, MiG-23 and MiG-29 than all of the X region countries but they (Z region) should not be able to research and build them.
Syria operates a vast number of SAMs (Pantsyr S1 included), many more than all X region countries combined ever, it also have more rocket/aeronautics research centers and experience than any and all X region countries but they (Z region) should not be able to research and build them.

Germany produced some parts for Abrams tank so so the G group shoul'd be able to research and build them?
US produced many parts for swedish Gripen so the U group shoul'd be able to research and build them?
Vietnam also operates Su-27 and Su-30s. Shoul'd it be able to build them?
What about Venezuela? Shoul'd them be able to build F-16s and Su-30s?
If not, why shoul'd be X region?

My position is clear: it is well known who is the producer of specific equipment and who is licenced producer. In the game you can licence-produce almost anything you want (due to oversimplistic AI diplomacy) for bargain price.
If something is american design or russian design, only them shoul'd be able to build them. Licence producers also but not as the unit database entry. So I'm against X region being able to produce MiG-23s or Pantsyrs, but I'm also against region Z or V being able to produce them (as the unit database entry).

Now, you have pushed your wishes and made X region full of designs that do not belong there on any basics. The other regions (that are more advanced users of before mentioned equipment) are now neglected. If BGs now enforce equal standards for all regions, the game and unit database woul'd become utter mess with anyone being able to build almost everything (South America is one region so they shoul'd all be able to build very interesting mix of US, Russian and european weapons - and what about merry Z region). Why then having regions at all if all of the units will ,de facto, be "world units"?
What to do with greek f 18?
syria mg 25?
Somw units ar sheard.
What did you get so caught up in the x group? You are not objective.
serbia currently has 18-20mig 29,she both 14 in last 2 ears.12 mig 29 they were destroy in bombing of serbia 1999.
Mig 23 in 1991 Serbia recoverd forom Iraq for remont,afer war they have renounced them and are now standing there.
Many weapons were created as subcontractors or refinements of other country weapons.
Japanese Fa 2 has anything to do with loki martini?
did the Japanese do anything with the F 16 like the Serbs with the t 72?
You claim that there will be no future co-ops?
Are you sure you do not have someting aginst x countries?
because your views when dividing the t group were very unbased. What is your educational level if I could ask? I em current Master of Economics.
as for the R 60 missile system https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... -and-r-60d
And you seid noting for M 84 ab1???
I only play official game,i did not dowload no one remaster.

And as for the economy. In democratic countries, how many factories are 100% state-owned? None. all have multi-stakeholder actions. that is, say, what is unrealistic about the game. what can I as a Jamaica invest in a factory in Japan?
Last edited by milivoje02 on Dec 12 2019, edited 1 time in total.
arakan94
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by arakan94 »

milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 12 2019

What to do with greek f 18?
syria mg 25?
Somw units ar sheard.
What did you get so caught up in the x group? You are not objective.
serbia currently has 18-20mig 29,she both 14 in last 2 ears.12 migova 29 je unisteno u bombardovanju srbije 1999.
Mig 23 in 1991 Serbia recoverd forom Iraq for remont,afer war they have renounced them and are now standing there.
Many weapons were created as subcontractors or refinements of other country weapons.
Japanese Fa 2 has anything to do with loki martini?
did the Japanese do anything with the F 16 like the Serbs with the t 72?
You claim that there will be no future co-ops?
Are you sure you do not have someting aginst x countries?
because your views when dividing the t group were very unbased. What is your educational level if I could ask? I em current Master of Economics.
as for the R 60 missile system https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... -and-r-60d
And you seid noting for M 84 ab1???
I only play official game,i did not dowload no one remaster.
Dude.. At least read what you are posting before posting it.. Maybe use auto-correct to help.. Because it's very hard to read your text :-?

Also.. "loki martini" :lol:

Come on. It's not that hard to actually look up the name of company and write it correctly.

And as Zuikaku said - it doesn't matter that country is using something they bought. They should only be able to make stuff they designed or got technology transfer for (such as F-2 or Korean T-50).
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by milivoje02 »

arakan94 wrote:
Dec 12 2019
milivoje02 wrote:
Dec 12 2019

What to do with greek f 18?
syria mg 25?
Somw units ar sheard.
What did you get so caught up in the x group? You are not objective.
serbia currently has 18-20mig 29,she both 14 in last 2 ears.12 migova 29 je unisteno u bombardovanju srbije 1999.
Mig 23 in 1991 Serbia recoverd forom Iraq for remont,afer war they have renounced them and are now standing there.
Many weapons were created as subcontractors or refinements of other country weapons.
Japanese Fa 2 has anything to do with loki martini?
did the Japanese do anything with the F 16 like the Serbs with the t 72?
You claim that there will be no future co-ops?
Are you sure you do not have someting aginst x countries?
because your views when dividing the t group were very unbased. What is your educational level if I could ask? I em current Master of Economics.
as for the R 60 missile system https://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi ... -and-r-60d
And you seid noting for M 84 ab1???
I only play official game,i did not dowload no one remaster.
Dude.. At least read what you are posting before posting it.. Maybe use auto-correct to help.. Because it's very hard to read your text :-?

Also.. "loki martini" :lol:

Come on. It's not that hard to actually look up the name of company and write it correctly.

And as Zuikaku said - it doesn't matter that country is using something they bought. They should only be able to make stuff they designed or got technology transfer for (such as F-2 or Korean T-50).
English is not my native langure. So i must apologize for the spelling. Syria bought desinge of mig 25? Greece bought desingde of f 18? Germany bought desinge of f18? Some untis shoud be sherad.
Do you believe that for the next 10 years no country with any country will cooperate. Fa 2,m84,j 22 are proof of that in the past. Coperation are in industy is present in reality.
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by Zuikaku »

You are quite serious in comparing japanese aeronautical (and space) industry with region's X tampering with (now) 50 years old T-72 design? You are seriously comparing japanese research capacity with that of all region X countries combined?
And I am biased here?

Also I gave you reasoning why I'm against giving certain designs to certain regions. You did not give me any counterargument on these except repeating over and over again that I am biased and against X region countries and that X region is advanced beyond all beliefs in arms industry. What are you then? Having grudge against Z and V group countries for not wanting exactly the same criteria for them?

and concerning region X MiG-29s:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 29s-serbia
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -grow.html
http://en.interaffairs.ru/analytics/107 ... ation.html

at the time of the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War in 1999, it had only 13 MiG-29B fighters and two MiG-29UB operational trainers acquired in the late 1980s. All were in service with Squadron127 of Fighter Regiment 204 at Batajnica. Six of these aircraft were shot down and five more were withdrawn due to various causes.

So, there were 13 + 2 trainers. 11 were lost and 4 remained. Of these 4 none was airworthy 3 years ago (due to lack of batteries and spares). 6 were donated to Serbia by Russia. That is 4 + 6 = 10. So your number (20) is mistery to me. The same funny thing is with Croatian MiG-21s and their innability to have 6 of them serviceable.

But I'm biased for not wanting region X (and other regions to be clear), being able to research and produce these aircrafts. We are talking about region not being able to keep serviceable a handfull of MiG-29s (or worse MiG-21s).
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
arakan94
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Re: Serb unit addition request (Split from Changelog 9.1.114)

Post by arakan94 »

It's not my native language either. I would expect someone with higher education to know it well though. Or at least use the "Check spelling" feature in your web browser - you can set it to English and it would fix most of your errors as they are often just letters in wrong order.

Syria received Mig-25s from USSR. They didn't build a single one of them.
I am not sure what F-18 do you mean. Hornet? Neither Germany nor Greece are even using those.

Cooperation doesn't mean that country is able to make that plane. Take F-35, for example - it uses components from many countries but only USA (or rather US company - Lockheed Martin) is able to build them.

My suggestion would be to add fantasy units to these regions in case some country becomes large enough to develop their own modern weaponry.
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