My Peace suggestions.

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Which peace system would you prefer?

The classic system used in 2020 and Cold War
2
11%
The new proposed system (see post 1).
10
56%
Neither but it needs changing.
6
33%
 
Total votes: 18

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tommo8993
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My Peace suggestions.

#1 Post by tommo8993 » Oct 24 2013

Due to debate in the kickstarter thread ive been asked to move it here.

The debate is, the current peace system.
I dont know about anybody else but I feel that the peace system in SR2020 and SRCW was not fit for purpose. A common thing seen in my games were:

1.Never ending AI wars, that some were not being thought
2.Countries getting split 50/50 between other countries when surrendering (India VS China + Pakistan)
3.At peace having 3-4 random hexes in the other teams territory, cut off from your country.
4.Messy borders, having a 1 hex column where a units has gone forward right before peace


So heres my proposed solutions.
1. If no units are lost in X amount of time make peace automatic.
2. Introduce a regions system with each region going to the country that control the most of it, if nobody controls any of it it goes to the nation with the most territory bordering it.
3. Again, you either control the majority of a region or you dont get anything.
4. Same again. Introduce a region system.

Now I dont know how these can be implemented, i'm not a games developer. But I do believe this will fix things for me.

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#2 Post by Thumboy » Oct 24 2013

This is a good idea :)
Hail Putin!

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Balthagor
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#3 Post by Balthagor » Oct 24 2013

It should be noted that the "surrender" rules changed to varying degrees between SR2010, SR2020 and SRCW.

I'll watch the conversation for a bit before I add comments. Thanks for starting it as a separate thread.
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#4 Post by MK4 » Oct 24 2013

tommo8993 wrote: 2. Introduce a regions system
You mean sorta like in HoI? A system of provinces sorta speak?

About the never-ending wars. In my opinion it is one of the biggest problems in 2020 (or any contemporary modern world scenario) and possibly the reason why after a while I get bored with a campaign as there seems to be no finality to it. A "technical" state of war might be reasonable, but actual fighting episodes in a modern conflict between two states should be brief (days, months - not decades) and end in some sort of arrangement (a cease fire), even if things don`t go anywhere militarily. One should be able to start with a small state, fight a bigger one, get some territory and hold on to it without the need to conquer the entire superpower nation. As it is now, if the player wants a chunk of territory from a neighbor he has to choose between holding that territory by means of a continues "border" of military units repulsing attacks for years on end or conquer the whole state and get territory it doesn`t actually want (plus eliminating a nation). Obviously, such an action would create casus belli and it would be reasonable to expect the defeated state to try to get its territory back, but at least, in the interval, you`d have a static border (meaning a border that doesn`t fluctuate with the passing of each enemy unit) and some sort of stabilization in that area from an economic and population point. The Ai should be able to somehow realize that the war is not going in its favour and that after a good while of military impotence (you know, those stages when the Ai nation can only send the odd unit every now and then) it should pause and rebuild.

That said, in a SR1936 context this would have to be carefully done so that the campaign still resembles history. Personally I`d like it to follow history closely UNLESS the player alters its course. The solution would probably be what Balthagor has hinted in a couple other threads: a good relationships mechanism.

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#5 Post by Zuikaku » Oct 24 2013

I like SR but it seems that I'm the main ranting trooper here, but something just have to be done with some things BG crew considers WAD.
MK4 wrote:?

About the never-ending wars. In my opinion it is one of the biggest problems in 2020 (or any contemporary modern world scenario) and possibly the reason why after a while I get bored with a campaign as there seems to be no finality to it. A "technical" state of war might be reasonable, but actual fighting episodes in a modern conflict between two states should be brief (days, months - not decades) and end in some sort of arrangement (a cease fire), even if things don`t go anywhere militarily.
Could not agree more!! I'm annoyed with regions fighting for decades, strips of occupied land and millions of casualties - in every single war....
MK4 wrote: One should be able to start with a small state, fight a bigger one, get some territory and hold on to it without the need to conquer the entire superpower nation. As it is now, if the player wants a chunk of territory from a neighbor he has to choose between holding that territory by means of a continues "border" of military units repulsing attacks for years on end or conquer the whole state and get territory it doesn`t actually want (plus eliminating a nation). .
+1 Hope that design team read this and understands what the problem is...
MK4 wrote: Obviously, such an action would create casus belli and it would be reasonable to expect the defeated state to try to get its territory back, but at least, in the interval, you`d have a static border (meaning a border that doesn`t fluctuate with the passing of each enemy unit) and some sort of stabilization in that area from an economic and population point. The Ai should be able to somehow realize that the war is not going in its favour and that after a good while of military impotence (you know, those stages when the Ai nation can only send the odd unit every now and then) it should pause and rebuild.
.
And that would make diplomacy more realistic and enjoyable!
MK4 wrote:
That said, in a SR1936 context this would have to be carefully done so that the campaign still resembles history. Personally I`d like it to follow history closely UNLESS the player alters its course. The solution would probably be what Balthagor has hinted in a couple other threads: a good relationships mechanism.
Nicely told
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#6 Post by Fistalis » Oct 24 2013

tommo8993 wrote:Due to debate in the kickstarter thread ive been asked to move it here.

The debate is, the current peace system.
I dont know about anybody else but I feel that the peace system in SR2020 and SRCW was not fit for purpose. A common thing seen in my games were:

1.Never ending AI wars, that some were not being thought
2.Countries getting split 50/50 between other countries when surrendering (India VS China + Pakistan)
3.At peace having 3-4 random hexes in the other teams territory, cut off from your country.
4.Messy borders, having a 1 hex column where a units has gone forward right before peace


So heres my proposed solutions.
1. If no units are lost in X amount of time make peace automatic.
2. Introduce a regions system with each region going to the country that control the most of it, if nobody controls any of it it goes to the nation with the most territory bordering it.
3. Again, you either control the majority of a region or you dont get anything.
4. Same again. Introduce a region system.

Now I dont know how these can be implemented, i'm not a games developer. But I do believe this will fix things for me.
I think thats a bit much considering alls you really need to do is increase the frequency in which the AI offers and accepts peace.. lol

Peace after AI vs AI conflict shouldnt be as rare as it currently is..at the same time nor should it be a given
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#7 Post by dax1 » Oct 25 2013

tommo8993 wrote: So heres my proposed solutions.
1. If no units are lost in X amount of time make peace automatic.
2. Introduce a regions system with each region going to the country that control the most of it, if nobody controls any of it it goes to the nation with the most territory bordering it.
[...]
1. I like it
2. in CW we have the "Battle Zones"

I'll add, not always the "nation A" must occupy the "nation B".
this should depend on the type of government.
for example, Country "A" = democracy
Country "B" = dictatorship
if "A" wins could liberate "B" and convert it into democracy
Con forza ed ardimento

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#8 Post by tommo8993 » Oct 25 2013

Yeah, it had battlezones, but that was nothing to do with the peace system.

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#9 Post by George Geczy » Oct 25 2013

Over the course of various updates we've made the AI offer peace more often, though it still factors in a lot of things (how much they hate you, how evil you are, etc). It is certainly much more common to see peace offers (and AI-to-AI peace) in SRCW Update 3 than it was in, for instance, SR2020.

That being said, it can also be argued that loosening this up to much will be unrealistic, as in WWII with England or Russia vs Germany, and WWI with France vs Germany, especially before the US joined. These are situations that observers would have expected some form of peace, but that is not in fact what happened.

To some extent the game does operate with a form of "de facto" ceasefire, much like the India-Pakistan border, or North Korea, or some of the wars in Africa, in the comments made earlier about how borders can stabilize with no land being exchanged for a period of time, even though the regions are still at war. This is a less than ideal situation, but it is not entirely unrealistic.

The split of regions that fall is an interesting point. Originally, AI regions would surrender to somebody, but then there was always the problem of who they surrender to. When multiple regions are fighting over someone, this can get complicated, and the region "losing out" (ie the region that isn't the one that gets the spoils) will usually find something they don't like about the result. Though here too we have made significant improvements in the SRCW Update 3 engine, with the addition of the Liberation and Colonize options. And yes there is room for adjustments here as well.

I do agree that having a way to restore original borders as part of a peace deal is a good idea. The ability to exchange/reset land by battlezone is also a possibility, though it has its own oddities.

Certainly a number of interesting things to think about here.

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#10 Post by Zuikaku » Oct 25 2013

George Geczy wrote:Over the course of various updates we've made the AI offer peace more often, though it still factors in a lot of things (how much they hate you, how evil you are, etc). It is certainly much more common to see peace offers (and AI-to-AI peace) in SRCW Update 3 than it was in, for instance, SR2020.
But it seems that AI still does not factor things like losses taken, gains got (or lost), state of treasury, DAR or war weary (if the war goes on for 3 ,5 or 10 years there sure will be a lot of war weary)...

Germany and Japan vs. the whole world or USSR vs. germany are exemptions from the rule (and this can easily be hard coded). Italy, France and most of the other countries do not fight that way. And remember, even the Japan or USSR didn't want to fight to the bitter end. And if you think a bit more, even germany didn't do that. Once the allies started crossing the borders of Germany itself, everybody except Hitler tried to surrender or broker peace.

And since campaigns are going to be played and after the WW2, please do something about that peace offers. And about AI vs. AI wars... Let them not fight forever!!!
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#11 Post by dax1 » Oct 25 2013

tommo8993 wrote:Yeah, it had battlezones, but that was nothing to do with the peace system.
tommo8993 wrote: 2. Introduce a regions system with each region going to the country that control the most of it, if nobody controls any of it it goes to the nation with the most territory bordering it.
it was for that....or I don't understand what u mean about "region system"....
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#12 Post by Zuikaku » Oct 25 2013

dax1 wrote: it was for that....or I don't understand what u mean about "region system"....
With regions for example, Italy would be divided to: Sardinia, Sicily, Veneto, Lombardia, Toscana, Lazio. Calabria, etc. ...
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#13 Post by dax1 » Oct 25 2013

Zuikaku wrote:
dax1 wrote: it was for that....or I don't understand what u mean about "region system"....
With regions for example, Italy would be divided to: Sardinia, Sicily, Veneto, Lombardia, Toscana, Lazio. Calabria, etc. ...

So tommo said about "pure regions"

So "sub battle zones" ok
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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#14 Post by MK4 » Oct 25 2013

Zuikaku wrote:And about AI vs. AI wars... Let them not fight forever!!!
That`s an epic slogan! :D

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Re: My Peace suggestions.

#15 Post by Thumboy » Oct 26 2013

In my opinion, I like the fact that AI always fight between each other because when you attack them, they aren't ready :D
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