REQ: AI can Build more freely

[Nagrach]

In 1936 most contrys Industry were only at the start of build up. That means that many required Resources weren'T used. In SR that would mean no Industrial Complexes... and that means the AI would not build at them at all. This Situation would means that many countrys would go into debt, what leads that they are not a challenge to conquer.

So its really important to make it possible to the AI to build on knew hexes were are no Citys or Complexes.

[Prescot]

This Situation would means that many countrys would go into debt, what leads that they are not a challenge to conquer.

That's realistic, isn't it? Most of countries which won inpendence went into debt to build industry.

[Nagrach]

Yeah but in SR they go into debt without industry :/

[mattpilot]

*bump*


Are we getting a "Build AI" in SR1936? I mean one that builds Military complexes and roads.

Doesn't have to be ueberly complex (tounge in cheek), but following this logic: Perhaps make the number of military complexes a function of landsize, with a minimum of 1. When deciding where to build it, set minimum distance to other military complexes and give preference to no/low supply areas and areas with high resources. Then have a "Road AI" that makes sure all military complexes are connected to the road network. And another check to build rails to areas of no/low supply


It just makes me sad playing Shattered World and seeing there's so many Regions with no units since they have no military complexes .. makes me go "Y U NO BUILD!!!!!???"

[geminif4ucorsair]

It is a valid point....AI will provide ships (it seems at times, but its a function of something else...) and raise some units (Guerrilla units mostly in some regions), but not true Military Complex areas that are capable of building Land Fabrication and Aircraft Fabrication components - or adjacent Sea Pier or Sea Ports (should be called "naval base") - unless they were there in the colonial period.

The construction of such facilities can be built by their Allies, and should be...it was not unusual in WW2 or afterwards....either in the case of Warsaw Pact or NATO.

I would encourage this in an aggressive manner, depending on the setting of Player Options about Random Events and a couple other criteria.

[Kellick]

The problem is the AI will then fill those facilities and crank out units nonstop which leads to the flower arrangement superbases that bog the game down. It already does this with existing ones with space to build, can you imagine if it could spam it's own military bases all over?

[number47]

The problem is the AI will then fill those facilities and crank out units nonstop which leads to the flower arrangement superbases that bog the game down. It already does this with existing ones with space to build, can you imagine if it could spam it's own military bases all over?

I haven't seen this happen from way back before update 3. With the latest 7.3.7 update, AI keeps most (all) of its units in reserve if not in a state of war...are you talking about SRCW or SR2020?

[Balthagor]

^
|
|

Yeah, what he said

[mattpilot]

The problem is the AI will then fill those facilities and crank out units nonstop which leads to the flower arrangement superbases that bog the game down. It already does this with existing ones with space to build, can you imagine if it could spam it's own military bases all over?

Not making a "Build AI" is the WRONG 'solution' to the above problem.


I shall stipulate for a moment that SR is first and foremost a Singleplayer game. WIth that, it needs AI that is capable of offering "dynamic gameplay".


The correct solution to the above quoted problem is... scripts ->:

- AI determines max amount of "facility X" to build by making it a function of how big its Military personnel/reserve is OR how big its economy is OR how much landmass it has OR a combination of all. Thats a "simple" script for a programmer to make and the AI shall run it every "X" amount of days/month to see if its valid.

- The same goes for Unit count -> The AI needs scripts to tell it what to build in what ratio and how much. No need for One million infantry squads if it only has 50000 reserve personel.

The same logic applies to all buildings ...... there is no "smart ai" .. its all a bunch of "if this, do that" scripts. If the AI goes rampant building stuff it can't sustain, then the programmer failed to put a "if to much of this, stop doing that" script in.

[Fistalis]

The problem is the AI will then fill those facilities and crank out units nonstop which leads to the flower arrangement superbases that bog the game down. It already does this with existing ones with space to build, can you imagine if it could spam it's own military bases all over?

I haven't seen this happen from way back before update 3. With the latest 7.3.7 update, AI keeps most (all) of its units in reserve if not in a state of war...are you talking about SRCW or SR2020?

And what happens when that country builds its forces for 10 years while not bothering to scrap 30 year old equipment.. then goes to war with another nation thats been doing the same and all those units activate at once?

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an AI that builds I'm just pointing out there are other issues that need to be considered prior to doing it.

The way the current AI goes hog wild with units is simply annoying now.. letting them build more ways to pump out more units would compound that issue.

[mattpilot]

I just had an interesting thought (if i might say so myself ) about the number of units.

Obviously one way to control the number of units that spawn at an instant (if that is a problem, as stated above), then another AI script could deploy them in manageable groups.

But anyway, the thought that came to me was, since the "unit limit" is dependent on how much reserve personnel you have, a simple way of reducing the number of units spawnable is by increasing personnel required. I understand we are at the battalion level at the moment, but multiplying current numbers required by 5 would put us at the regiment or brigade level, effectively reducing the number of units spawnable by 5 (at least main ground forces).

Another way of looking at it is the enormous amount of 'support personnel' a battalion needs. Did some googling on the "tooth-to-tail" ratio on the US army, and it seems in 2008 the ratio was 3 support personnel for every 1 combat soldier. 2010 study shows that 40% of US armed forces never seen combat. Nice ratios considering the US army is/was in the middle of a war.

Anyway, a plausible idea, even though i guess one of the main selling points of SR is "Freakin huge unit count" - so haters go on hatin

[Kellick]

The problem is the AI will then fill those facilities and crank out units nonstop which leads to the flower arrangement superbases that bog the game down. It already does this with existing ones with space to build, can you imagine if it could spam it's own military bases all over?

I haven't seen this happen from way back before update 3. With the latest 7.3.7 update, AI keeps most (all) of its units in reserve if not in a state of war...are you talking about SRCW or SR2020?

And what happens when that country builds its forces for 10 years while not bothering to scrap 30 year old equipment.. then goes to war with another nation thats been doing the same and all those units activate at once?

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an AI that builds I'm just pointing out there are other issues that need to be considered prior to doing it.

The way the current AI goes hog wild with units is simply annoying now.. letting them build more ways to pump out more units would compound that issue.

More 2020 than CW since I've been modding CW more than playing, but what Fistalis said. I would love to see the AI capable of building, but only if it could do so intelligently and without bringing the game to a crawl.

I just had an interesting thought (if i might say so myself ) about the number of units.

Obviously one way to control the number of units that spawn at an instant (if that is a problem, as stated above), then another AI script could deploy them in manageable groups.

But anyway, the thought that came to me was, since the "unit limit" is dependent on how much reserve personnel you have, a simple way of reducing the number of units spawnable is by increasing personnel required. I understand we are at the battalion level at the moment, but multiplying current numbers required by 5 would put us at the regiment or brigade level, effectively reducing the number of units spawnable by 5 (at least main ground forces).

Another way of looking at it is the enormous amount of 'support personnel' a battalion needs. Did some googling on the "tooth-to-tail" ratio on the US army, and it seems in 2008 the ratio was 3 support personnel for every 1 combat soldier. 2010 study shows that 40% of US armed forces never seen combat. Nice ratios considering the US army is/was in the middle of a war.

Anyway, a plausible idea, even though i guess one of the main selling points of SR is "Freakin huge unit count" - so haters go on hatin

It would cut unit count for sure to go up to bigger units, and watching battles would be as detached and impersonal as HOI. It also makes the units more generic (and not in a way I think you'd like either). It's already a stretch having btns that are more or less made up of all the same vehicle, but at the brigade level? Yeah, it works for WW2 I suppose. It doesn't work at all after that. You'd have 2 kinds of brigades, combined arms and support. I'm really curious to see how HOI CW (the actual name escapes me at the moment) is going to handle it (other than what they are doing with ships, which I'd love to see in SR, I don't know if land and air units are going to be any different) , but if it is the same as HOI3 then I'm not interested.

You are correct about support personnel, but who really wants to model and manage that in play? Yes war is all about logistics, it's arguably more important than strategy and tactics and anything else, but it isn't fun (face it, even the AI refuses to deal with logistics ). While I like a good deal of it, I don't want a heavy degree of realism, I might as well just get a part time job as an accountant for fun if that was my idea of it. Would having to deal with dental btns, maintenance btns, sigint btns, and a whole slew of other non-combatant btns really add anything to the game?

I'd much rather that issue stay somewhat abstract, although it is modeled to a degree, the fabs and bases use military manpower to staff them. Quite a bit.

[mattpilot]

It would cut unit count for sure to go up to bigger units, and watching battles would be as detached and impersonal as HOI. It also makes the units more generic (and not in a way I think you'd like either). It's already a stretch having btns that are more or less made up of all the same vehicle, but at the brigade level? Yeah, it works for WW2 I suppose. It doesn't work at all after that. You'd have 2 kinds of brigades, combined arms and support. I'm really curious to see how HOI CW (the actual name escapes me at the moment) is going to handle it (other than what they are doing with ships, which I'd love to see in SR, I don't know if land and air units are going to be any different) , but if it is the same as HOI3 then I'm not interested.

I'd have to disagree on one point -> less units would actually make it more personal, as you create a greater attachment to each unit. RIght now, if your playing a big country and got thousands of units mingling about, you are more inclined to just drag a big selection box over it and tell them to "go attack here". I also dont think of units as only driving the same vehicle. I think of them as all having abstract abilities and tasks.

You are correct about support personnel, but who really wants to model and manage that in play? Yes war is all about logistics, it's arguably more important than strategy and tactics and anything else, but it isn't fun (face it, even the AI refuses to deal with logistics ). While I like a good deal of it, I don't want a heavy degree of realism, I might as well just get a part time job as an accountant for fun if that was my idea of it. Would having to deal with dental btns, maintenance btns, sigint btns, and a whole slew of other non-combatant btns really add anything to the game?

I'd much rather that issue stay somewhat abstract, although it is modeled to a degree, the fabs and bases use military manpower to staff them. Quite a bit.

Dunno where you pulled that idea from, but thats way to much micromanagement. By bringing the idea of support personnel in i was merely creating plausability for an abstract idea of increasing the number of personnel required. In that way you could still think of a (combat) unit your moving around as a "battalion".