Loyalty?

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tkobo
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by tkobo »

Not as far as this goes........
We now can control the level of "loyalty penalty" such that over time you can make the area's lack of loyalty of little importance. But yes, they refuse to change loyalty. We're still testing the balance on all of this and will be testing right through release.
If occupying an allies land ,say like in the case of a fallen ally ,gives you a big enough penalty on production that takes place in those occupied hexes,it can be self defeating,making allowing the enemy to hold the land the better choice in some cases.....

...And.....

If its possible to fight in a proxy war,and yet take land for yourself rather then your proxy....a high penalty can again be self-defeating....
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by demolitionmonk »

Oh, I do have a question on Loyalty, could we do what the Soviets pulled with Konigsberg, I mean Kaliningrad. I mean they forcibly relocated much of the population that didn't flee WW2.

For example in a prolonged conflict I shell a region of nation till it is depopulated...once peace comes the population will slowly go up...might those new immigrants be loyal to me?
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tkobo
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by tkobo »

Nope.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by tkobo »

Perhaps add in more modifiers to the loyalty penalty based on sphere and or alliance ?Same sphere and/or alliance adding modifiers that lessen the penalty ?
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Balthagor »

Imported from another thread;
Balthagor wrote:If you'd like to discuss loyalty, revive one of the many threads on the topic.

There are no plans to change it. If our opinion was you couldn't change loyalty in 20-50 years, we're not likely to allow changing loyalty in 2-5 years.
Zuikaku wrote:But loyalty changes. And was especially in WW2.

In Superpower player can change "loyalty" via domestic policies. There are no ethnic cleansings or concentration camps. But you can influence this by:

1. Government types (dictatorship, monarchies and other types that do not enforce full human and political rights have higher chance to change loyalty)
2. Religious rights (secular state, state religion, theocracy).
3. Political rights (free elections, banned parties, nationalistic parties only, no elections)
4. Minority rights (allowed political activity, allowed authonomy, allowed use of own language, allowed cultural authonomy).

So, there are many factors that could both enhace domestic policies and influence hex loyalty.

And yes, hex loyalty was changed drastically in some parts of the world during last 100 years, especially during WW2 by both Axis and Allied nations....
But id doesn't make any sense to implement this if occupations are still to easy and guerilla spawning do not depend on DAR, hex loyalty and domestic policies factors....
Thumboy wrote:I agree, this is a better model for loyalty.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Balthagor »

Thread transferred from SRCW Dev section.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Fistalis »

BG-> |O <-- You

Thus sums the previous conversation and any addition to this thread.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by number47 »

Fistalis wrote:BG-> |O <-- You

Thus sums the previous conversation and any addition to this thread.
And some others...but still :lol: :lol: :lol: for providing the graphical scheme of this predicament :D
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Col_Travis »

George Geczy wrote:
tkobo wrote:Japan and the US
The Japanese (and possibly also the German, in a different way) occupation after WWII is an interesting case.

With both having been devastated after the war, suffering huge personal and national sacrifice, there is something of a "please save us" mentality. This would especially be true in Germany, where they realized that they had been led down a garden path by a maniac.

Japan was a bit different, because the Japanese never really had this feeling about their Emperor, but the US smartly allowed Japan to keep their Emperor because of this. And the US made it clear they were going to leave soon - they were out by 1951, six years after the end of WWII. So, were the Japanese during this period increasingly loyal to the US, or just merely tolerant?

And starting in 1952, Japan was technically no longer occupied, and so the relationship with the US was Nation-to-Nation, something modeled differently than Loyalty in Supreme Ruler.
The US conttinued to administer the Southern Ryuku Islands until 1972.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Col_Travis »

ZT Strike wrote:
Balthagor wrote:If the US moved into Poland to kick out the Russians in '60 the Polish would like the US, not want to be US citizens. They'd want a democratic Polish country. That's sphere again, not loyalty.
Good point
West Germany never recognized the Oder-Neissse Line as the border between Germany and Poland, so there would be some ambiguity with the Poles allowing the Bundeswehr to liberate them. And remember that M-day +48hrs the Bundeswehr would have 1,380,000 troops to the US's 245,000 and BAOR's 55,000 with the rest of NOTHAG fielding less than 200,000 in Europe and that's just the ground forces. So the US probably would not be the ones liberating Poland, it would be the Germans. The current German-Polish Border Treaty was signed in 1990 officialy ending WWII and the Cold War in Europe.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Col_Travis »

So George, is this why Quebec is considered an occupied territory? The Qubecois have been so disloyal to canada that on Nov 29, 1944 the Les Fusiliers du St. Laurent mutinied in Terrace, BC (x:190, y:111 (unnamed hex)) to protest being sent overseas (as they believed to France) instead of defending Canada or defending Britian. And then we have the Newfie's, so loyal to Canada that a union with the US was deliberatly kept off of the referendum baliot in 1948 to prevent that from hapening, that the final outcome on July 22, 1948 was 52% union with Canada to 48% return to a soveriegn Dominion (minus Labrador), but they are loyal to Canada in the game?
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by tristanjay »

Loyalty can be changed by governments using less than honourable means. for example, forced evacuations and genocide followed by resettlement by nationals. or long-term occupation and propoganda.

There are many examples of this, such as the occupation of Kaliningrad(former Koenigsberg) or the occupation of German lands east of the oder-niesse line, that are controlled by Poland.

If there was a way to resettle parts of your population to occupied areas, and 'evacuate' local citizens through amiguous means than loyalty would slowly change as the foreign population decreased and the loyal population increased. Another good example is the conquest of the Confederate States by the invading Yankee armies.
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Balthagor »

tristanjay wrote:...forced evacuations and genocide followed by resettlement by nationals. or long-term occupation and propoganda.
The engine doesn't model any of these except long-term occupation which many groups have shown does not necessarily diminish past loyalties (Palestinians, Kurds, etc.).
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Zuikaku »

Balthagor wrote: The engine doesn't model any of these except long-term occupation which many groups have shown does not necessarily diminish past loyalties (Palestinians, Kurds, etc.).
What about opposite historical examples (like changing loyalties upon India and Pakistan exchanges territory and population which was one of the biggest case of changing loyalty of hexes)? :D
Please teach AI to liberate and colonize instead of only annexing!
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Re: Loyalty?

Post by Balthagor »

May be possible as conditional events in the updated events system. Exchange of territory is not something a player can do.
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