Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

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SGTscuba
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Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#1 Post by SGTscuba » Feb 15 2020

I suggested this idea over on discord as something to just try out.

The idea is to use a similar system to the inflight refuelling system, with ships that should be tankers having much larger fuel capacity, but no cargo capacity. They could then only supply fuel. This would help to reduce demand for military goods in the earlier scenarios mainly, but this would obviously be at a cost of increasing fuel demand. This however would not be massively unrealistic as several navies were short of fuel oil and had to limit their sorties, with this even affecting the ability of the British Pacific Fleet towards the end of the war as it had many ships it could deploy, but not the tankerage to support them.

Now, I tried the simplest test of this, by assigning ships with the right parameters, but they do not refuel from each other this way unfortunately, so I guess it is hard coded this way. Therefore I'm suggesting that this capability should be added to the game, at least for it to be modded onto units stats.

I'm not sure if this should be expanded to land units too, meaning tanker transports would be quite useful, although they wouldn't provide any ammunition, but would compensate by being able to supply purely fuel.

What do others think of this idea?
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GIJoe597
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#2 Post by GIJoe597 » Feb 15 2020

I am not sure I am in favor. One major reason is cargo can be barrels of fuel. Fuel does not necessarily have to be stored in a liquid hold of a naval vessel. Any vessel with room could, and did, particularly in the early start eras, haul fuel in the form of cargo via barrels.

Furthermore, I believe Military Goods are hard coded to use petroleum in the manufacturing process. It would mean rewriting the code for manufacturing as well as adding a new item, Fuel. This could have cascade effects which would throw off the economy. Conceivably, BG may be forced to re-code each and every individual unit in game, air/land/sea as they are currently built around the formula for Military Goods. Essentially, fuel does not exist in game.

evildari
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#3 Post by evildari » Feb 15 2020

Would also like to see "refueling" use fuel instead of military goods.

Military goods manufacturing use of petroleum is defined in the unit file as bitmask (ie. which resources are used as input) and in the wmdata file is the amount per produced unit defined.
This part is not hardcoded.
Just the resupply from other units using military goods (its especially bad if you mod petroleum to something else like kWh with higher numbers).
Only mitigation would be to not use resupply units like trucks...
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Nerei
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#4 Post by Nerei » Feb 15 2020

Personally I like the idea as it would be a more accurate way to represent underway refuelling. If it is feasible to change is naturally something else entirely.

If separating replenishing ammunition and fuel is too complex is naturally also a relevant question. That said having a practical difference between a replenishment vessel and a RORO transport would not be bad. Right now there are none.
The difference such a system would make for say a Sacramento or Supply would probably be around 25.000-30.000 tonnes of dry cargo capacity.

For oilers and replenishment vessels all relevant fuel used for underway refuelling will be stored in internal fuel tanks. Any fuel they might be carrying in dry cargo storage (e.g. in barrels) is not really feasible to use for this and I would say it can safely be disregarded.
One of the main reasons underway refuelling is feasible in the first place is that the fuel is easily transferrable by a hose from a large storage tanks.
This is also how it was done historically. Even during the Great War the logic was to use hoses to transfer the fuel. Navies where just not even remotely as comptent at it as they are today.


Also I must admit it kinda annoys me that except for the Algol and a few actual military transports nearly all high capacity sea transports are actually replenishment vessels or oilers. Had these vessels actually been usable in this role it would be one thing but they are not. They are terrible for at this.
While we are at it it should also be said that a decent number of the high capacity amphibious assault ships are also just replenishment vessels or oilers that BG forgot to give the DockToUnload flag.

SGTscuba
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#5 Post by SGTscuba » Feb 16 2020

GIJoe597 wrote:
Feb 15 2020
I am not sure I am in favor. One major reason is cargo can be barrels of fuel. Fuel does not necessarily have to be stored in a liquid hold of a naval vessel. Any vessel with room could, and did, particularly in the early start eras, haul fuel in the form of cargo via barrels.

Furthermore, I believe Military Goods are hard coded to use petroleum in the manufacturing process. It would mean rewriting the code for manufacturing as well as adding a new item, Fuel. This could have cascade effects which would throw off the economy. Conceivably, BG may be forced to re-code each and every individual unit in game, air/land/sea as they are currently built around the formula for Military Goods. Essentially, fuel does not exist in game.
It would use petroleum, as the "normal" ships fuel would currently in game. The dedicated air tankers just have a larger fuel cap and sometimes cargo and then fill from that, occasionally this can lead to them running out of fuel and crashing though.

Also, by avoiding the military goods, you avoid tying up the industrial goods and electricity too, as well as in the early times military goods production being much less capable leading to massive shortages around the world. I'd see this as a way to balance it out by boosting petrol demand. Might make wars a bit more fluid again perhaps.
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MeatHammer 40k
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#6 Post by MeatHammer 40k » Mar 07 2020

That's a cool suggestion separating military goods and petroleum on cargo ships.
SGTscuba wrote:
Feb 15 2020
I'm not sure if this should be expanded to land units too, meaning tanker transports would be quite useful, although they wouldn't provide any ammunition, but would compensate by being able to supply purely fuel.
It raises the question of how land units are supplied like when I send bulk of my units back to the barracks after taking over a region I notice a rise in petrol demand (Understandable). But if it might need to traverse un-supplied areas I'll escort with a supply unit to help. when it uses the cargo for fuel is it really using the cargo that is Mil. Goods being that when you deploy them Mil. Goods demands goes up?

SGTscuba
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#7 Post by SGTscuba » Mar 08 2020

Yes, supply trucks use up military goods when they supply units.
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MeatHammer 40k
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Re: Tanker ships providing fuel directly, and not using Military goods

#8 Post by MeatHammer 40k » Mar 08 2020

I'm sure it will take work to re-do all supply units but perhaps land supply units could have a petroleum capacity as well. When I see a land supply unit on the map I see it like in Afghanistan, A column of 7-tons some have JP8 Fuel, non-potable water, chow and bottled water ect. Never saw a motor transport battalion just move all fuel or just supplies in their "trains"
Not only it'll be an illustration of how they work but keeps the cost of moving units from being too costly. I can't imagine the cost margin of JP8 and regular fuel the same margin as Petrol cost and mil goods cost in game.

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